copper penny selling price

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Dude... Cecilville is in the middle of nowhere! About the only thing around there are gangs of druggies growing pot in the wild. Best be careful. Let us know when you come out to work the claim and all the Californian's will come meet you.

Hey, the motel has a free internet connection.

Hahaha! Yes, I know! I lived there in the mid '70's. Pulled two internships in the USFS. The pot grown out there is some really powerful stuff, man! The pot growers were benign back in the day. Hope they smoke a lot of their stuff and stay calm & cool, not violent. I am more concerned about claim jumpers. They have always been there, always will be.

I will keep you guys posted when I come out there.

[andrewjackson]

. Hi sheikh
I am also a fellow gold prospector. Would like to take a trip to Alaska and california some day but right now I have been prostpecting in northern new England. For the fine and micron gold take all but a couple riffles out of your sluice (less turbulance) and use miners moss with carpet underneath it works great. There's gold in them thar hills!

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Hi Andrew!

Thanks for the tips! I am just getting started again. I panned for gold out there on the Salmon River in California back in the day. I got just enough gold flakes to make for conversation in the only bar in 30 miles. With the new technology out there to recover micron and fine gold... there is a whole new gold rush going on!

I never knew there was gold in the New England states. Just recently learned about gold in Appalaica Mountains from Penn. to North Carolina. I am having some mass spectrometer assays done. I hope one of them pays off.

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

What is most telling is the silence of the old timers on this thread. Only three long time participants responded to my original question of "why are you guys not holding out for higher prices?".

Maybe the "old timers" are too busy sorting out copper pennies to respond. I think a lot of us old timers are holding out for higher prices. Sure, I will sell off small quantities now and then to free up a little operating capital. It is often cents I picked up very cheap and I am arbitraging them. I usually sell to other members.. so I know they are going to a good home. Some of the reasons folks sell are to free up capital.. so they can buy that next big batch of pennies to sort.. of a couple of boxes of halves to search for silver. The market price seems to be drifting up a bit. Of course the market price will always be determined by who is willing to sell the cheapest.. until that person runs out of product. Now is a good time to build the hoard.. whether you do that by sorting your own.. or buying from other members while the market price is still a bargain. Another thing to consider is the time value of money and inflation. Is 4 cents 10 years from now worth as much as 1.5 cents now?

[PennyPauper]

Just like the old time gold prospectors aren't willing to give up their honey holes and secrets,old time sorters might not want to talk.
How many wealthy people do you see out in the streams panning or dredging? Why would anyone sell gold or silver when we know prices are rising.
Why do stockbrokers and investors sell their stocks when we are all told that over time there prices will rise. People and companies sell things all the time for less than true value. 100 people can look at a situation and come up with 100 different interputations of it. I view sorting as a hobby and it works out for me.Its economical.Like having gold and silver. Sure we wish we could sell for closer to real value.But do you ever get true value for selling silver or gold? Buyers want to make a profit too. RIght now its a niche market and buyers want a bigger cushion for taking the risk.Each copper they buy at todays price they have one cent or more built in profit down the road. The problem isn't that there are too many sellers keeping prices low,it's that there are too few buyers.Once enough people or a few wealthy ones realize the profit poteitial here it might be like the rush of 49.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

What is most telling is the silence of the old timers on this thread. Only three long time participants responded to my original question of "why are you guys not holding out for higher prices?".

Maybe the "old timers" are too busy sorting out copper pennies to respond. I think a lot of us old timers are holding out for higher prices. Sure, I will sell off small quantities now and then to free up a little operating capital. It is often cents I picked up very cheap and I am arbitraging them. I usually sell to other members.. so I know they are going to a good home. Some of the reasons folks sell are to free up capital.. so they can buy that next big batch of pennies to sort.. of a couple of boxes of halves to search for silver. The market price seems to be drifting up a bit. Of course the market price will always be determined by who is willing to sell the cheapest.. until that person runs out of product. Now is a good time to build the hoard.. whether you do that by sorting your own.. or buying from other members while the market price is still a bargain. Another thing to consider is the time value of money and inflation. Is 4 cents 10 years from now worth as much as 1.5 cents now?

Hoard, I consider you to be the Old Wizard of Cu penny sorters. When you talk, I always listen. You guys got me to feeling guilty and I actually hand sorted five rolls last night in my room. Thanks for the advice. You made some good points.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Just like the old time gold prospectors aren't willing to give up their honey holes and secrets,old time sorters might not want to talk.
How many wealthy people do you see out in the streams panning or dredging? Why would anyone sell gold or silver when we know prices are rising.
Why do stockbrokers and investors sell their stocks when we are all told that over time there prices will rise. People and companies sell things all the time for less than true value. 100 people can look at a situation and come up with 100 different interputations of it. I view sorting as a hobby and it works out for me.Its economical.Like having gold and silver. Sure we wish we could sell for closer to real value.But do you ever get true value for selling silver or gold? Buyers want to make a profit too. RIght now its a niche market and buyers want a bigger cushion for taking the risk.Each copper they buy at todays price they have one cent or more built in profit down the road. The problem isn't that there are too many sellers keeping prices low,it's that there are too few buyers.Once enough people or a few wealthy ones realize the profit poteitial here it might be like the rush of 49.

None of us has a crystal ball to tell the future. By my logic there will be a glut. IF you are a "first to market" person, you will reap a temporary gain before the average citizen starts dumping all the pennies they have kept in jars, and boxes, for years. After the glut is when pennies shall be scarce and the price will then take off (IMHO).

It is like I would tell people six months before the crash of '08: "I hope you are right and I am wrong."

[wackzingo]

The reason they sell "so cheap" is because no one will pay more than that and we can hope for higher prices but there's no guarantee. You say it's cheap but would you pay more than 1.3-1.5¢? If so, I have plenty of pennies you can buy at 1.8-2¢ each

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

The reason they sell "so cheap" is because no one will pay more than that and we can hope for higher prices but there's no guarantee. You say it's cheap but would you pay more than 1.3-1.5¢? If so, I have plenty of pennies you can buy at 1.8-2¢ each

You are making my point. Too many people sell at too low a price to make this a worth-while investment at this point in time.. This depresses the very market Real Cent was designed to develop.

If you want to profit from your labors, you will have to demand a higher price. Every business is this way, not just copper pennies. The market will value your worth the same way you value it yourself. Hoard Copper By The Ton's best point in his statement is now is the time to acquire cu pennies. It's too bad most of those pennies will be sold for far less than they are really worth.

But, go ahead, sell on the cheap (your words, not mine). I will not convince you to do otherwise.

[wackzingo]

You're making the assumption they are worth more based on speculation.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

You're making the assumption they are worth more based on speculation.

I don't think so. Please go to http://www.coinflation.com/. There at Coinflation you will see the melt value of copper pennies is 2.47 cents. The actual melt value is 2.47633 times it's face value. Now, subtract out the zinc (5%) and you get 2.3435135 times face. Now allow for 15% refiners' fee. That leaves the true melt value of the copper in the penny at 1.999636475x face. Or, like I have said before... right around 2x face. Now, those are facts, not assumptions or speculation.

Here is the speculation I will make. Copper will behave just like silver did in the early sixties. Most people didn't value the silver and continued to spend it on everyday items until it was virtually all gone. Now that almost all silver has been pulled from circulation, it has become scarce. Over the past ten years, that silver has been passed from "weak hands" into "strong hands" and the price continues to rise. Why? Because of inflation and the "strong hands" will not part with the Ag for "cheap" prices.

Copper will be the same. It's value will not grow much until almost all of it is gone from circulation and it resides in "strong hands". Then it will command the price it deserves. What may speed this up is the US government is hell-bent on debasing it's own currency. Copper prices will rise simply because of inflation, not scarcity. Factor in inflation and you are merely breaking even (maybe even losing money) selling at 1.5x face.

[wackzingo]

You're making the assumption they are worth more based on speculation.

I don't think so. Please go to http://www.coinflation.com/. There at Coinflation you will see the melt value of copper pennies is 2.47 cents. The actual melt value is 2.47633 times it's face value. Now, subtract out the zinc (5%) and you get 2.3435135 times face. Now allow for 15% refiners' fee. That leaves the true melt value of the copper in the penny at 1.999636475x face. Or, like I have said before... right around 2x face. Now, those are facts, not assumptions or speculation.

I am aware of coinflation but the problem is the penny or cent is not copper it's brass; 95% copper + 5% zinc is Red Brass. The average buy price of Red Brass is about 1/2 of the copper spot price. I can take in 1lb of Red Brass pipe fittings to any major scrap metal dealer and although it contains $3.42 worth of copper, they only give me $1.60-$2/lb.. Based on the actual scrap metal value they are really worth 1.4 times face value. There has been speculation that copper will rise to as much as $6/lb. next year which would put them at about 2 times face value. The true value of something is determined by what someone is actually willing to pay. In the silver market the spot price of silver has been about $26-$28/oz. for the past few weeks, yet Silver has consistently been selling for $30 to $33 per oz. and that is true value of 1 oz.. The fact is a penny is red brass and scrap dealers pay much less than the copper value. You are speculating that copper will rise in price and there will be buyers willing to pay the full copper price.

Gold and Silver have been used throughout history to store wealth. This is why silver coins don't need to be melted because the form doesn't really matter (ie. 40% or 90%). Copper is an industrial metal and it's use in monetary systems has always been practical (ie. Gresham's Law); There is a fundamental difference between Gold & Silver's use in a monetary system and copper's. When a currency collapses people return to Gold & Silver to store their wealth and to hedge against inflation not copper, zing, nickel, etc.. Copper will rise, but only because industrial demand is greater than the supply and therefore if legalized, pennies will be melted down just like any other scrap. Zinc and nickel are used in coins but that doesn't mean we will begin seeing zinc bullion.

Having said that, I do collect copper cents because I am speculating that someday it will be legal to melt them and therefore I can sell them as scrap at a greater price than I paid for them.

[Treetop]

The reason copper pennies are selling under their melt value, seems exceedingly clear to me. Because you can still EASILY find them. If finding them was as hard as finding silver coins in the wild, they would be selling in line with melt values.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Thanks Wackzingo & Treetop for your posts. I thought about it a lot since my last post and realized, just like you, that copper is far more abundant on this earth than silver ever was. It will not behave like silver has in the past, nor will it in the future. Therefore, sorting and hoarding cu pennies will have even less of a return on investment than I ever imagined until now. It's scrap metal.

I have four unopened boxes of pennies left. I return them to the bank on Monday. I will use the money to find people who will sell their 90% silver at far less than it's melt value. They are still out there.

Keep sorting your pennies, everyone!

[NDFarmer]

I have four unopened boxes of pennies left. I return them to the bank on Monday. I will use the money to find people who will sell their 90% silver at far less than it's melt value. They are still out there.

Where do you find people to sell for less than melt? I can't find any.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I have four unopened boxes of pennies left. I return them to the bank on Monday. I will use the money to find people who will sell their 90% silver at far less than it's melt value. They are still out there.

Where do you find people to sell for less than melt? I can't find any.

I have not purchased any silver since spot was at $18... what? About two- three months ago? I have used Coinflation's silver coin page as a bargaining tool to talk people down. Always offered melt value to them according to coinflation's current price sheet. Most people always told me I made the highest offer, soooo, the next time I go out and buy.... I'll offer less than coinflation. There must be some very aggressive coin buyers in my town, or... maybe the people here are just dumber than they are in your home state!

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

When there are fewer buyers than than there are sellers.. metals sell at a discount.. it does not matter if that metal is copper, silver or gold. Copper pennies have the additional disadvantage of being illegal to melt, as well as the perception that they are still easily and readily available from circulation. The copper penny market has the biggest imbalance between #'s of sellers and #'s of buyers. This, coupled with the melt ban, and silver and gold getting most of the attention, concern about storage space (Most folks don't realize how small a footprint a ton has.. yet the noble metals are still much easier to store), and liquidity issues, cause it to have a significantly bigger discount.

I buy silver below melt every month.. at coin clubs.. where folks are theoretically knowleable about melt values. When somebody wants to sell, and there are not hoards of buyers lining up.. they will shop for the best price they can sell at. Ready cash is often a good thing to have. Even though it is fiat.. it is always in demand.

Heck, I even bought 6 rolls of war nickels at a serious discount from another dealer at a show this month.

I would have quickly sorted those 4 boxes, kept the copper, and cashed out the zinc to fund silver purchases.

[beauanderos]

Sheihk and Hoard both have several good and valid points, and in part, I agree with both of them. Because of it's lowly worth, the cent gets a bad rap. You can still find them laying on the ground. Try that with silver or gold. People conceive of them as worthless, lots of individuals donate them to penny pots for others to use in change, there are cries for legislation to eliminate them as denominations for commerce. So the penny is under the radar of the majority of people, some might say due to contempt for its worthlessness (soon to be attributed to the fiat dollar). You could view this lull in demand for copper coins, and therefore the seller's market for them, as being similar to the falsely enabled currently affordable price of silver due to shorting manipulations. People figure if something is inexpensive now, it will be highly improbable that it will ever be more expensive... although we are now witnessing a point in time, with silver at least, when the public is slowly awakening to the perception that silver is, or soon will be, much more valuable than the point at which it is now priced. Copper cent accumulaters realize this as well, thus as Hoard indicated... now is the time to amass cents, not try to market them for meager returns. Unless your capital is completely depleted, and you have no means to obtain more cents to sort. If this were the case, then it would make sense to sell for 1.3 or 1.4, whatever the market is, so that you could enlarge your foundational base. And, as Sheikh says, if that base is already replete with what you deem is a fair amount of value in copper cents to represent a modicum of diversification, then by all means move the capital towards silver. I think in the coming five years the rate of increase will be greatest by silver, followed by copper, and trailed by gold... and though late to the copper-gathering game, I am planning my acquisitions based on that premise. Plus I think it's cool to steal money right from under the unsuspecting noses of every one else... even if it can't be sold for its eventual value yet

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I would have quickly sorted those 4 boxes, kept the copper, and cashed out the zinc to fund silver purchases.

Hey, Hoard, I'll sell the four boxes to you at 1.1x face plus shipping. What do you ya say?

I will take the $100 and use it for good purposes.

Seriously, there is someone I know who is finally going to let me buy their silver, so I need to liquidate some things to get up the FRNs. Will sell off some things like a small pond hopper boat, motor, & trailer, two canoes, a pickup, haul my aluminum & brass to the scrap yard, etc. Maybe that will be enough to do it.

Whackzingo is right. Pre 1982 pennies are not copper, they are brass. That is the fundamental paradigm shift my brain was trying to make. There is nothing wrong with that. Penny sorters must be prepared for brass prices, not copper prices, then if you get cu prices for your coins... you make out like a king!

HCBTT you are also right. If you are going to deal in brass pennies, now is the time to gather them up!

Beauanderous is right. I think you hit the nail square on the head!

[TXBullion]

I would have quickly sorted those 4 boxes, kept the copper, and cashed out the zinc to fund silver purchases.

Hey, Hoard, I'll sell the four boxes to you at 1.1x face plus shipping. What do you ya say?

I will take the $100 and use it for good purposes.

Seriously, there is someone I know who is finally going to let me buy their silver, so I need to liquidate some things to get up the FRNs. Will sell off some things like a small pond hopper boat, motor, & trailer, two canoes, a pickup, haul my aluminum & brass to the scrap yard, etc. Maybe that will be enough to do it.

Whackzingo is right. Pre 1982 pennies are not copper, they are brass. That is the fundamental paradigm shift my brain was trying to make. There is nothing wrong with that. Penny sorters must be prepared for brass prices, not copper prices, then if you get cu prices for your coins... you make out like a king!

HCBTT you are also right. If you are going to deal in brass pennies, now is the time to gather them up!

Beauanderous is right. I think you hit the nail square on the head!

Do the scrappers on here think Sheikh is right about the brass price versus copper price?

[wackzingo]

Brass comes in many forms with significantly different amounts of copper. Red brass is usually around 90% copper, with the remaining 10% a mixture of zinc and sometimes led or tin. Yellow brass is usually closer to 65% copper, 30-35% zinc and the remaining 0.01%-1% being iron and/or led. Gilding Metal specifically C21000 is 95% copper and 5% zinc and is considered a red brass.

The large scrap yard in the Seattle area currently pay around $2.50-$3.50/lb. for #1 & #2 copper. Clean copper (ie. #1) pipe and wire will get $3.50/lb.. Dirty copper (ie. #2) which has solder or other metals attached will only get around $2.50/lb.. Yellow brass typically gets around $1.50-$2.00 and Red Brass (ie. 90% copper + 10% zinc) gets between $1.90-$2.50/lb.. If melting were legal and scrap yards would take them, some scrap yards may consider them a slightly higher grade because they contain approximately 5% more copper than other red brass and may be willing to pay a small premium above their normal price but I wouldn't count on more than a few cents per pound.

Keep this in mind, scrap yards don't even pay the spot price for 100% pure copper so why would you count on it for a copper alloy which ordinarily pays almost half as much?

I still hoard the copper cents because it's a far better return than current interest on CD's and most savings accounts but it's certainly isn't worth my time to make a point to go out of my way just to get them. I occasionally pick up a box and sort through them as I have time and when I have nothing else to do but I make decent money and my time is far better spent working a few hours and buying a few ounces of silver. All I'm saying is don't base your potential profit off of copper prices but off brass prices.

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

Hey, Hoard, I'll sell the four boxes to you at 1.1x face plus shipping. What do you ya say?

I will take the $100 and use it for good purposes.

Maybe if they were all zinc LP4's.. or all brass.. but that is above market for mixed boxes that require a modicum of sorting.. containing only 20-25% brass and 75-80% zinc rejects. Why would I want to pay to ship zinc rejects? Now if you cycle them a few times and refine it down to 4 boxes of the good stuff, I would be happy to pay your price.

By the way.. they are cents, not pennies.

[ZigMeister]

What a bunch of interesting and thought out comments. My thanks to all of you.

Just a couple of my thoughts (and maybe hopes).

Silver coins aren't pure silver either but an alloy of 90% Ag and 10% Cu and yet they sell at or above melt because they are identifyable and recognizable. But try asking a Scrap Yard what they will pay for silver coins and you will find out it is way way less than silver value (probably half or less). If all you're doing is waiting to sell to a scrap yard, sure they will pay scrap prices for brass. But, if we have big time inflation (which I think we will), people will want something that will be a store of value and is readily identifyable and recognizable. I won't sell my silver coins to a scrap yard for scrap and don't plan on selling my Cu cents to a scrap yard either. Once the melt ban is lifted (and it will be), I think the best place to sell is to other individuals or perhaps for larger quantities directly to a refiner bypassing the scrap yards altogether. I believe prices will eventually be much closer to melt.

If I didn't enjoy my handsorting so much, I would probably be buying at current prices...but my goal and challenge is to accumulate as much as I can while I am still getting a reasonable percentage (averaging about 17-18 %). There is also the added benefit of finding wheats and other finds...errors, etc.

Like I keep telling my Grandkids...practice patience. Now may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I didn't seize the silver opportunity in the mid-60s and don't want to make the same mistake again. Just Like Hoard and Beau said...this is accumulation time.

[slickeast]

I sell a few hundred pounds a week at 1.8 x face. I do this to build my frn's to buy more loose to sort.

I also search halves. I sell the 40% and the "brass" to buy 90% or .999 with the profits.

What reasons you have to hold copper cents or not to hold is your own. Time, costs, availability to get and dump, and many other factors have to be considered.

I am not going to try to sway anyone in either direction.

[Spikeanator6982]

where do you get someone paying 1.8x face? I would send you pennies at 1.7x face..