Trying to combat the counterfeit silver problem!

[Copper Catcher]

In a recent thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18479&hilit=fake+silver+bars#p172607 I mentioned how China was counterfeiting and selling all sorts of brand named silver bars and rounds. With a few clicks of the mouse you can get bars that look identical to the real thing wrapped in plastic, all weight the right about and are the right size and shape. The only way to tell if it is real or not is to destroy the coin or bar by scratching or drilling.

So you can put this all in prospective, at least 8% of China’s GDP is derived by counterfeiting goods! This is a multi-billion-dollar illegal enterprise that has resulted in upwards of $1.2 trillion in lost sales, which has been either ignored or sanctioned by the Communist Chinese government. It is estimated that all commercial electronic devices such as televisions and cell phones contain more than 8% counterfeit components on average.

The next time you are on a long transcontinental flight, think about the fact that the US Federal Aviation Authority has estimated that 2% of commercial jetliner electronics are counterfeit.

Getting back to silver bullion:

Obviously bullion companies are recognizing the serious threat and trying to do something about it. The Sunshine Mint has recently introduced: The MINT MARK SITM hidden security features: http://www.amark.com/Content/Docs/amark ... int_a2.pdf

I'm sure this will be the first of many such measures that will be taken.

I'm waiting for a company to develop a service that will test i.e. X ray all your existing silver or gold bullion and then seal them and certify them that they are real backed by a fully guarentee. One can only hope...

As prices start to rise to historic highs, within the next few years or a shorter time period, well all will be at a greater risk of getting burned.

[Copper Catcher]

Destructive Testing of Fake Silver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFpKuziI ... _embedded#!

[beauanderos]

these posts are an excellent example of why it is prudent to stock up on 90% junk dimes... before they become targetted as well. Most likely they are the safest purchase available today

and in fact, this could lead to the common date slicks that everyone bashes becoming "premium" purchases. If a counterfeiter is going to bother replicating a coin, they would do so at near full weight to get the "most for their money" and pick key dates to do so.

[Treetop]

Good points ray . Ive also thought modern commemorative silver dollars might be a wise choice. Often can be had with a low or no premium, and they are as hard to forge as anything else. Yet with the low mintages AND low premiums (on most not all of them) Id think they would be very unlikely to be forged.

[Rodebaugh]

Buy new product direct from manufactures for .999

or from trusted dealers

[pennypicker]

these posts are an excellent example of why it is prudent to stock up on 90% junk dimes... before they become targetted as well. Most likely they are the safest purchase available today

and in fact, this could lead to the common date slicks that everyone bashes becoming "premium" purchases. If a counterfeiter is going to bother replicating a coin, they would do so at near full weight to get the "most for their money" and pick key dates to do so.

This is precisely why I've always felt that in the future the 1964 Kennedy half dollar will be highly counterfeited. This is because most pieces saw little to no circulation so counterfeiters know they can produce mint specimens with no signs of handling wear and will be able to pass them off without suspicion. So for this reason I agree with beauanderos in that average circulated silver dimes (especially Mercs) will be the last item choosen by counterfeiters to reproduce.

[Klark Cent]

interesting topic.

how do you guys like to buy your junk dimes? coin dealer? online? i have been favoring the junk halves, because they tend to be less worn down, and it seems like they are almost always sold in multiples of face value rather than by weight.

[IdahoCopper]

Buy new product direct from manufactures for .999

or from trusted dealers

This sort of defeats the purpose of Ag for preps. If every time you wanted to trade .999 for some goods, you need to go to a "trusted dealer" to complete the trade and pay a commission?

[fasteddy]

how do you guys like to buy your junk dimes? coin dealer? online? i

Well, beaunderos has his "weekend silver sale" every weekend...just saying...

[silver]

You don't think China isn't counterfeiting half dollars yet? I remain skeptical.
ED

[beauanderos]

You don't think China isn't counterfeiting half dollars yet? I remain skeptical.
ED

they are counterfeiting all forms of 90% now... but for the most part they are key date coins. There's a better profit margin for them to go after the one ounce .999 market (and on up)... as well as fake Morgan's and Peace dollars, than there would be smaller pieces.

[beauanderos]

how do you guys like to buy your junk dimes? coin dealer? online? i

Well, beaunderos has his "weekend silver sale" every weekend...just saying...

Actually... the more I think about it... this kind of thing makes me want to close shop and quit selling. I bought most of my stash back in 2003 - 2005, when I feel the lack of incentive to fake stuff for profit would have deterred the rat finks from doing so. That 90% is thus irreplaceable... as opposed to questionably sourced junk you would purchase nowadays. And even buying from reputable online dealers will not solve that problem. You really think a big dealer selling $1000 face bags is gonna take the time to verify authenticity of their product??? "Hey, Jonas... check out those ten thousand rosies individually, before you ship em, eh?" Yeah, right!

[SilverDragon72]

Buy new product direct from manufactures for .999

or from trusted dealers

Would Rodebaugh be considered a reputable dealer??

Good points. I always buy mine from my LCS or other trusted sources, like the US Mint or Provident metals.

[scyther]

So there's basically no reliable way to aoid counterfeits, right? If the big dealers aren't going to check their stuff, I don't know who we can trust...

[cesariojpn]

So there's basically no reliable way to aoid counterfeits, right? If the big dealers aren't going to check their stuff, I don't know who we can trust...

The Government?

*ducks thrown items*

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

Buy new product direct from manufactures for .999

or from trusted dealers

Would Rodebaugh be considered a reputable dealer??

Good points. I always buy mine from my LCS or other trusted sources, like the US Mint or Provident metals.

Sure.. just buy Rodebaugh, MH and A&M bars and you should be safe.

[IdahoCopper]

Ok, so you buy silver from a "reputable dealer". Five years go by and you decide its time to sell some of the hoard. Upon that decision, you have instantly become a "dealer". Are you "reputable"? Will anyone trust that your silver, bought 5 years ago from a "reputable dealer" is not counterfeit?

That is the real problem. If your hoard can't be sold, then there is no point in having it.

I personally experienced this problem when I bought my car recently. I wanted to pay with 2008 Ampex 1oz rounds, but the seller wasn't sure he could trust they were real. So we agreed on pre-1964 .50 and .25 US coins.


I think the PTB have recently touted the counterfeit problem to specifically cast doubt that silver is any good at all; and the sheeple should stay vested in FRNs.

[scyther]

So there's basically no reliable way to aoid counterfeits, right? If the big dealers aren't going to check their stuff, I don't know who we can trust...

The Government?

*ducks thrown items*

Yeah, I suppose buying from the mint is a pretty good assurance of authenticity. If fresh-from-the-mint ASEs were anything but real silver, I think the word would get out very quickly, so I think we can trust the mint. But I'm not going to pay the premium for buying directly from them...

[SilverDragon72]

Ok, so you buy silver from a "reputable dealer". Five years go by and you decide its time to sell some of the hoard. Upon that decision, you have instantly become a "dealer". Are you "reputable"? Will anyone trust that your silver, bought 5 years ago from a "reputable dealer" is not counterfeit?

That is the real problem. If your hoard can't be sold, then there is no point in having it.

I personally experienced this problem when I bought my car recently. I wanted to pay with 2008 Ampex 1oz rounds, but the seller wasn't sure he could trust they were real. So we agreed on pre-1964 .50 and .25 US coins.


I think the PTB have recently touted the counterfeit problem to specifically cast doubt that silver is any good at all; and the sheeple should stay vested in FRNs.

True. Something to think about. I'll just stick with my already established and trusted sources.

[SilverDragon72]

Buy new product direct from manufactures for .999

or from trusted dealers

Would Rodebaugh be considered a reputable dealer??

Good points. I always buy mine from my LCS or other trusted sources, like the US Mint or Provident metals.

Sure.. just buy Rodebaugh, MH and A&M bars and you should be safe.

Rodebaugh makes good bars and ingots, I simply have to say!

[BooBoo1000]

What do you consider a good source for " old dimes"??? Thank you for your reply.

[Robarons]

Although its not much- but if they try to counterfeit American silver eagles or 90% Junk its felony, you cant counterfeit US Currency. This may or may not gain interest of the Government but just an idea.

Its when you see counterfeit Gold American Eagles hit the stream that would undermine their authenticity that will drive customers (and profits) away from the US mint or cause financial problems that ehy will wake up and do something.

[ZenOps]

You know... I'm kind of getting meh, to the idea of counterfeit coinage.

We in Canada have been circulating 98% iron cored coinage posing as nickel since 2000. Our nickel, dime, and quarter are just posing as having some value, and now our dollar and two dollar coins are also just iron cored with a 2% nickel coating (I still consider iron to be worth $13 per ton, and nickel $52,000 per ton)

The US dime to half dollar have been posing as nickel for a long time as well. I mean really, US coins made after 1965 are just basically copper pennies of varying size, pretending to be nickel with an 8.33% partial covering of cupronickel.

Sure you *could* blame China for "counterfeit" coins. But every single Canadian coin made this year on (from penny to toonie) is basically counterfeit as well. As are all US coins that are pretending to be made of a significant amount of nickel (nevermind silver). I mean really, you would need 165 US dimes to get one ounce of nickel metal.

It all depends on perspective I guess.

[Catfish4u]

Although its not much- but if they try to counterfeit American silver eagles or 90% Junk its felony, you cant counterfeit US Currency. This may or may not gain interest of the Government but just an idea.

Its when you see counterfeit Gold American Eagles hit the stream that would undermine their authenticity that will drive customers (and profits) away from the US mint or cause financial problems that ehy will wake up and do something.

This is a VERY LOW priority for U.S. government. I bought several thousand dollars worth of fake Morgan's off Craigslist. I contacted several 'police authorities' and was finally directed to the Secret Service. At first the agent stated they really were not interested in this type of crime. He took my name and phone number and later called me and stated his superiors wanted him to pursue the criminals. I set up a meeting to 'make another buy' but the Secret Service 'stood me up'.

I sometimes wonder if our government does not encourage this type of crime - if not just 'looking the other way'. By 'letting these fakes get into circulation' they are reducing the trust in silver and gold as a method of conserving value and investments. JMHO

[ZenOps]

Yup, I'm pretty sure you won't get much help from the US government.

The whole *goal* of Nixon shock was to take away real money from the masses. How do you overcome that?