Focus On The Policy, Not Wikileaks

[AGgressive Metal]

I find it interesting that you consider the ATF "public service" in the same post that you promote Ron Paul - they are among the most corrupt part of the Federal government and basically every firearm law they enforce is unconstitutional. And I'm not sure you are capable of having a rational discussion since you seem to want to make it about my personal life rather than debating what I actually say. Is the wikileaks guy some kind of patriot? Of course not, he is not even an American! All I am asking is this: what information do we not have a right to know? And furthermore, as Ron Paul rightly points out, we wouldn't have this problem if we weren't launching undeclared never-ending wars against an undefined enemy.

[AGgressive Metal]

And you say that there is a correlation between war protests and casualties. There is a much bigger correlation between launching ridiculous undeclared 10 year long occupations and casualties.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I find it interesting that you consider the ATF "public service" in the same post that you promote Ron Paul - they are among the most corrupt part of the Federal government and basically every firearm law they enforce is unconstitutional. And I'm not sure you are capable of having a rational discussion since you seem to want to make it about my personal life rather than debating what I actually say. Is the wikileaks guy some kind of patriot? Of course not, he is not even an American! All I am asking is this: what information do we not have a right to know? And furthermore, as Ron Paul rightly points out, we wouldn't have this problem if we weren't launching undeclared never-ending wars against an undefined enemy.

I never mentioned ATF. They no longer exist. Did you mistake ATF for BAFTE? They only enforce laws passed by the Congress and signed into law by the POTUS. Any law that doesn't pass the Constitutional muster goes before the SCOTUS for review. SCOTUS is very pro-second amendment, especially right now. So, what "unconstitutional" gun law do you speak of?

AM, I am beginning to think you do not fully understand how our republican form of government works. In earlier posts, you carp about the military not securing your liberties from "un-constitutional" laws, such as the Patriot Act. That has never been a function of the military. Law making comes under the "Political Question" Doctrine, and is handled by the Congress. It is not the place of the military to intervene. To do so would be a military coup (VERY HIGHLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL). It is also up to Congress to declare war, or if they choose not to go to all out war... such as Iraq & Afghanistan, Congress can fund military actions. Congress has chosen to do just that. Congress can de-fund these military actions anytime they so choose. Why have they not done that? The Democrats campaigned heavily to end these conflicts. Even after the Democrats had full control of the Oval Office and both the House and Senate, the wars grind on. Why? In spite of what you may believe, it is in the best interest of our country to do so.

Another way you do not understand how our government works is by asking what information is available to US citizens. I will answer your question in spite of your evading all of mine. It is called the FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT. Look it up sometime.

If you want to change our country more to your liking, I would encourage you to go at it! In fact, I would be glad to help you in areas we agree on. I am not happy with how things are now, myself. The proper path to regain our eroded liberties is through the Constitution. Dr. Ron Paul would tell you the same thing. Ask him sometime. He will answer you emails just like he has answered mine. The Constitution does not exist inside a vacuum, almost every word within the Constitution is further defined into law by Congress. It becomes part of the US Code. The UCMJ is part of that code.

How did so many liberty eroding laws get into the US Code? Because Americans, for the most part, have become apathetic about our government. We The People have been "asleep at the switch" for far too long. It is past time to WAKE UP! Get to work and let's restore our liberties won to us by our Founders!

[Thogey]

Let's face reality,

Your positions can be reconciled. The fact is: the folks who have power here in the USA are often corrupted by that power. This is human nature and it happens whenever one man has power over another. So we believe in God, ultimate justice, and the promise of salvation.

War sucks, period. It always seems like a good idea when you decide to participate in one, especially when it's not your ass that's going to bleed.

But if you make the decision to go to war, It should be conducted with extreme violence, overwhelming and disproportionate force. All stops should be pulled and war should not be conducted unless complete victory is the goal. This Iraq thing is a perfect example, a twenty year war..with a piss ant bunch of camel-f***ers like Iraq? Nonsense! But releasing a bunch of tactical secrets has no value on either side.

That's what pisses me and probably AM off so much is the fact that our government treats war as a political exercise. If you conduct violence half ass the effort fails. The alternative: don't do war.

But, this is a separate issue for the wikki leak thing. In my opinion, the disdain we all should have for this pencil-necked limp dick is that he has no skin in our game. Since these decisions have been made, right or wrong, we cannot tolerate this "static" created by wiki leaks.

All actions have consequences, Mr Wiki should be dispatched, that's the right thing to do for our self interest.

The policy debate is a separate. I don't believe AM is anti-American and believe he is pro-military.

I know guys whose entire 20 year careers have been Iraq, that is nonsense.

This debate is a good one, but you guy's look like you are misunderstanding each other and making this a personal issue.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I am sorry for making anyone uncomfortable by asking border-line personal questions. For me, this is personal. I have two friends still rotating in & out of theater. There are former Boy Scouts I trained working in theater. There are the sons and daughters of my friends working in theater.

Mr. Wiki threatens the safety of them all.

EDIT: AGressive Metal... I apologize if I became too personal.

[Treetop]

I wish ALL our nations secrets became known. I am sure this would endanger many lives, but at this point I highly doubt it would endanger more then keeping the secrets does. We have powerful people building a police state up around us, using the left to build half, and the right to build the other half.

We have an indoctrinated, apathetic, dang near brainwashed public, that refuses to see the bigger picture. this goes global as well. Study, I mean actually study and dig into the working of the IMF. systematically enslaving the world. at first you might argue this was good for us. Heck it artificially inflated our life styles here in the states, that should of lowered after decades of watering it down. Look at the bigger picture though, now WE are being forced slowly but surely to take the same cuts, and offered the same BS as justifications.

It sure is a conspiracy, but it isnt "theory". Because though its hard to impossible to see the full scope it is easy to trace and see the outline of. there are powerful interests putting the globe under its thumb. Slowly working at dis empowering the global population. does this sound crazy to you? then study. Its all verifiable.

Its time to look behind the veils as far as Im concerned. that said I am not yet convinced this wiki thing is legitimate. Release things as if they are true secrets, and those wanting to peer behind the curtain assume they ARE legitimate secrets.

[AGgressive Metal]

EDIT: AGressive Metal... I apologize if I became too personal.

Its cool - its the internet, anything can happen!

[AGgressive Metal]

How did so many liberty eroding laws get into the US Code? Because Americans, for the most part, have become apathetic about our government. We The People have been "asleep at the switch" for far too long. It is past time to WAKE UP! Get to work and let's restore our liberties won to us by our Founders!

One of which is freedom of speech?

Here is a good audio essay on the topic from the Mises Institute: http://mises.org/media/5639

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

How did so many liberty eroding laws get into the US Code? Because Americans, for the most part, have become apathetic about our government. We The People have been "asleep at the switch" for far too long. It is past time to WAKE UP! Get to work and let's restore our liberties won to us by our Founders!

One of which is freedom of speech?

Here is a good audio essay on the topic from the Mises Institute: http://mises.org/media/5639

Sorry, It's late and I didn't listen to the audio. (I didn't want to wake up the misses listening to von mises) The USA is a nation of "we the people". Our republican form of government is representative in nature. The will of the people in a representative form of government is expressed through legislated laws.

Did the legislature pass laws infringing upon freedom of speech? Hell yes they have. Whose fault is that? Ours. As in "US". We have allowed the legislature to be filled with overly zealous whack jobs who think they are "doing the people a favor" by passing idiot laws we don't need. Just look at the omnibus spending bill passed today. $1.1 TRILLION DOLLARS we do not have to fund bull[excrement] we do not need.

The most egregious law de jur at this time is ObamaCare, where every American is compelled to buy something they don't have to have to live in the USA. Compelled benefits are nothing new in America, this one is over the top in forcing Americans to do what they do not want to do.

At that point, we the people have several choices. 1.) You can challenge the law at SCOTUS. That is being done on Obamacare and is very expensive. The filing fee alone is $10,000.00 2.) You can get involved politically and overturn the law, or keep laws from being passed in the first place. Think TEA Party, as of late. 3.) You can disobey the law. Usually not a good idea if you like walking around free. 4.) You can knuckle under and obey the law. That sucks. 5.) You can revolt. The worst idea of all. It has not worked ever since 1776. You end up losing everything.

The best choices are #1 & #2. Get involved and keep bad laws from being passed in the first place. Get involved and repeal bad laws now on the books. File suit to overturn bad laws that cannot be defeated via repeal.

The mess we are in did not happen overnight. It took a long time to get here and will take a long time to get back out. What other reasonable choice do we have? With lots of hard work, we can get it done! In fact, many people can make a good buck at it by making it their life's work.

[Kurr]

With all due respect shiek (and I do respect what you have to say), I disagree.

Over 90% of "the public" made their displeasure with the proposed healthcare legislation known. Protests, marches, calls, letters, faxes, you name it. Guess what, did they "representitives listen? NOPE! Just passed what they wanted anyway. How is that our fault?

How about the TARP? Again, mass expression of displeasure, a clear cut majority. Did they listen? NOPE. Did what they wanted anyway. How is that our fault?

What do you do when the SCOTUS upholds unconstitutional laws? How is that our fault? They are appointed by the same crooked folks mentioned above.

I also noticed you left nullification either by states or juries off your option list. I think Jury nullification is our last line of defense, but what do you do when they judge says to the jury "I'll tell you what the law says and how to interpret it"?

And you say Obamacare is the most egregious law de jur law? Where were you on helmet laws? How about car insurance? Are we not made to purchase a goods or service there as well? we are made to purchase liscense plates, permits, and a whole host of other things every day. This "healthcare" situation is nothing new.

What would you propose to deal with the current situation where the will of the people is blatently ignored to our extreme detriment?

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

With all due respect shiek (and I do respect what you have to say), I disagree.

Over 90% of "the public" made their displeasure with the proposed healthcare legislation known. Protests, marches, calls, letters, faxes, you name it. Guess what, did they "representitives listen? NOPE! Just passed what they wanted anyway. How is that our fault?

How about the TARP? Again, mass expression of displeasure, a clear cut majority. Did they listen? NOPE. Did what they wanted anyway. How is that our fault?

What do you do when the SCOTUS upholds unconstitutional laws? How is that our fault? They are appointed by the same crooked folks mentioned above.

I also noticed you left nullification either by states or juries off your option list. I think Jury nullification is our last line of defense, but what do you do when they judge says to the jury "I'll tell you what the law says and how to interpret it"?

And you say Obamacare is the most egregious law de jur law? Where were you on helmet laws? How about car insurance? Are we not made to purchase a goods or service there as well? we are made to purchase liscense plates, permits, and a whole host of other things every day. This "healthcare" situation is nothing new.

What would you propose to deal with the current situation where the will of the people is blatently ignored to our extreme detriment?

Kurr, there is so much to respond to in your post. We are a nation of 300+ million people. There are competing ideas of how to run our government. Look how diverse the opinions here at Realcent are, and we are a very tiny community with a narrowed focus on coins. Imagine how difficult it is to make 300+ million people happy!

Yes, many many people took to the streets to express their displeasure about the Congress elected in 2008. The 2008 Congress is a manifestation of the left gaining control to enact laws they felt were best for the people who elected them. Now the Right will have it's turn when Congress reconvienes in January, 2011. We must hold the Right accountable and sternly warn them

What I am proposing is that we engage the political apparatus of this country and change the course of this nation back to where it once was. That will take the rest of your life, the rest of my life, the rest of AG. Metal's life. Look at how the Left has worked tirelessly for gain all the laws on the books it wanted. It has happened over the course of 80 years. For many on the Left, it has been a pretty good gig. They have enriched themselves in the process.

We can do the same thing. We can vote out of office those who oppose us and vote into office those who will work things the way we want them. Why not? The main thing we need is to capture the imagination of "the people". Convince the people to vote for Liberty, not serfdom.

I do not see a defensive posture being a good one on all the issues we talk about at Realcent. I am not one to hunker down into a homemade bunker and curse the darkness as it gathers around me. That is a losing scenario. You will be a sitting duck for jack-boots who get their jollies by kicking in doors. The best defense is a good offense! Remember that line? Go on the offensive. Take the issues that chaff your hide to your rep's and senators and make them understand their job is on the line!

I have never been more displeased with SCOTUS than right now. Two lawsuits I have donated money to support were denied writs of certiorari. Justice Thomas has even joked they are "avoiding the issue". No matter how displeased I am with them, they are still the final judges on all Constitutional issues. The way to overcome stupid judges is once again the political process. Judges can be impeached, but only if you hold a majority willing to impeach them.

Kurr, I am sure I am not addressing all your questions, but I hope you get my drift.

Win the majority! That is what we have to do. Then, it will be us writting the law, or repealing bad laws. It has been a long time since I read the King James version of the Holy Bible. I am trying to remember where it is in the New Testament that the Apostle says: "God forbid! We write the law!"

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I also noticed you left nullification either by states or juries off your option list. I think Jury nullification is our last line of defense, but what do you do when they judge says to the jury "I'll tell you what the law says and how to interpret it"?

I have sat on two juries. The last one we disagreed with the Judges' instructions on evidence. Result: hung jury! We made them re-try the case.

And you say Obamacare is the most egregious law de jur law? Where were you on helmet laws? How about car insurance? Are we not made to purchase a goods or service there as well? we are made to purchase liscense plates, permits, and a whole host of other things every day. This "healthcare" situation is nothing new.

I mean Obamacare is the "soup de jur". The flavor of the day. The latest of a long list. As I have mentioned before... compelled benefits are forced on us all the time. We don't like paying taxes, but we like driving our bikes on paved roads.

What would you propose to deal with the current situation where the will of the people is blatently ignored to our extreme detriment?

One thing that is kind of floating around in the back of my mind is a return to Treasury dollar bills instead of Federal Reserve Notes. We The People tell the Fed to go pound sand.

[AGgressive Metal]

One thing that is kind of floating around in the back of my mind is a return to Treasury dollar bills instead of Federal Reserve Notes. We The People tell the Fed to go pound sand.

Well I think we can probably all agree on that as a positive step. But I would not consider that to be a long-term solution, since then the same people or ones like them will simply print money no different than the Fed does today. I would like to see a free market in currency ultimately, like that described by Friedrich von Hayek in his essay, "Competition in Currency - A Way to Stop Inflation." Imagine a world where you were free to contract in any kind of payment that you and the other party agreed upon, be it gold, US Dollars, Euros, silver, private bank credit, etc. Then no one could manipulate the money supply too greatly, since people could simply switch to a more stable medium.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

One thing that is kind of floating around in the back of my mind is a return to Treasury dollar bills instead of Federal Reserve Notes. We The People tell the Fed to go pound sand.

Well I think we can probably all agree on that as a positive step. But I would not consider that to be a long-term solution, since then the same people or ones like them will simply print money no different than the Fed does today. I would like to see a free market in currency ultimately, like that described by Friedrich von Hayek in his essay, "Competition in Currency - A Way to Stop Inflation." Imagine a world where you were free to contract in any kind of payment that you and the other party agreed upon, be it gold, US Dollars, Euros, silver, private bank credit, etc. Then no one could manipulate the money supply too greatly, since people could simply switch to a more stable medium.

Hmmm, I thought we had that now. The catch in our system is you must value everything in FRN at tax time for the IRS to take their share of it.

[AGgressive Metal]

One thing that is kind of floating around in the back of my mind is a return to Treasury dollar bills instead of Federal Reserve Notes. We The People tell the Fed to go pound sand.

Well I think we can probably all agree on that as a positive step. But I would not consider that to be a long-term solution, since then the same people or ones like them will simply print money no different than the Fed does today. I would like to see a free market in currency ultimately, like that described by Friedrich von Hayek in his essay, "Competition in Currency - A Way to Stop Inflation." Imagine a world where you were free to contract in any kind of payment that you and the other party agreed upon, be it gold, US Dollars, Euros, silver, private bank credit, etc. Then no one could manipulate the money supply too greatly, since people could simply switch to a more stable medium.

Hmmm, I thought we had that now.

Yes, go to the SEC and tell them you'd like to issue some corporate bonds denominated in gold and tell me how that works for you.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Hmmm, I thought we had that now. [/quote]

Yes, go to the SEC and tell them you'd like to issue some corporate bonds denominated in gold and tell me how that works for you.[/quote]

There actually have been SCOTUS cases with contracts denominated in gold. The rub was the IRS wanted to tax the income. The defendants claimed there was no income because they had traded in ounces of gold for ounces of gold at a later date. The IRS didn't care. Because gold had gone up in price in FRNs, they claimed there was income. The IRS won. You can contract for anything from Spanish Reals to widgets to dog pucky, if there was income, the IRS wants in on the gig.

[AGgressive Metal]

Hmmm, I thought we had that now.

Yes, go to the SEC and tell them you'd like to issue some corporate bonds denominated in gold and tell me how that works for you.

There actually have been SCOTUS cases with contracts denominated in gold. The rub was the IRS wanted to tax the income. The defendants claimed there was no income because they had traded in ounces of gold for ounces of gold at a later date. The IRS didn't care. Because gold had gone up in price in FRNs, they claimed there was income. The IRS won. You can contract for anything from Spanish Reals to widgets to dog pucky, if there was income, the IRS wants in on the gig.

Sorry you are simply wrong on this. There are legal tender laws in this country that have never been repealed. You cannot denominate bonds or stocks or mortgages or anything else that is a financial instrument like that in gold. Yes, you and I can make a private/personal contract in gold, but it is not legally enforceable in gold, since the court will only order monetary damages in legal tender if one of us breeches. And of course then there are the IRS issues that you raise as well. Also, try opening a bank account in Euros or Swiss Francs down at the local BOA or Wells Fargo.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

One thing that is kind of floating around in the back of my mind is a return to Treasury dollar bills instead of Federal Reserve Notes. We The People tell the Fed to go pound sand.

Well I think we can probably all agree on that as a positive step. But I would not consider that to be a long-term solution, since then the same people or ones like them will simply print money no different than the Fed does today. I would like to see a free market in currency ultimately, like that described by Friedrich von Hayek in his essay, "Competition in Currency - A Way to Stop Inflation." Imagine a world where you were free to contract in any kind of payment that you and the other party agreed upon, be it gold, US Dollars, Euros, silver, private bank credit, etc. Then no one could manipulate the money supply too greatly, since people could simply switch to a more stable medium.

You spoke specifically about contracts, and so did I. You spoke of "contract in any kind of payment that you and the other party agreed upon, ..." You are free to do that right now. And you are right, if there is a default, the courts most likely will settle on a FRN monetary remedy.

Speaking of SEC. You are also right there. That is why ETF's shall be the whopper of all screw jobs when they default. GLD, SLV, and the new Copper ETF's will take the metal and run once they default. Share holders will get pennies on the dollar, and it will be in FRN. It already happened in nickel a few years ago. The secured warehouse owners elected to "borrow" their clients' nickel and sell it to other people. The stiffed nickel owners were repaid, once the price of nickel dropped back down to "normal" levels.

Delawhere Jack said it best about PM's: "If you don't hold it, you don't own it!"

[fb101]

I acknowledge that some things need to be kept secret.
Just like taxes really do need to be paid to a government (for appropriate reasons)
Necessary evils.
It sucks, but it is a reality.
If they had leaked our plans for the normandy invasion, guess what mein herr?
People who leak national security secrets should be treated as traitors.

[Joogaler]

I acknowledge that some things need to be kept secret.
Just like taxes really do need to be paid to a government (for appropriate reasons)
Necessary evils.
It sucks, but it is a reality.
If they had leaked our plans for the normandy invasion, guess what mein herr?
People who leak national security secrets should be treated as traitors.

The problem is that the traitor isn't an American! I agree that somethings should be kept secret, but there is too much of it. We pay our taxes, and we deserve to know what happens to atleast a little bit of out money! Just google operation Gladio, operation AJAX, and Operation NorthWoods. That will show you that too much was kept secret, for too long a time. This country has been run for the last few decades by corporate, and other interests that want to infringe upon our rights as American people! It's time for the sleeping giant to wake up! It's time we turned off Fox News telling us how bad it is, and taking a stand against this parasite we call the US Government! I don't know how to fix it, but voting Republican, and voting Democrat hasn't seemed to change jack in the last years.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Benjamin Franklin

[aloneibreak]

Just google operation Gladio, operation AJAX, and Operation NorthWoods. That will show you that too much was kept secret, for too long a time.

which are precisely why one shouldnt rule out the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job...

but thats off topic...