Fake 90% Silver

[68Camaro]

Dang - someone needs to create a electronic signature contact checker.

You mean like a Ryedale?

Maybe like the technique used in the comparator, yes, but with the format of a handheld contact probe.

[Engineer]

Damn. I hate fakes. I'm sure some exists, but perhaps it would be significantly safer to buy 40%, or maybe Canadian 80%?

Dang - someone needs to create a electronic signature contact checker.

You mean like a Ryedale?

Coin comparators have a hard time with silver dimes, and Andy doesn't support his machines for that purpose.

I got lucky and managed to get a good one that does pull out the 90% from clad, but even mine has its limitations. 68Camaro is on the right track that we need to build something rather than relying on off the shelf parts which weren't designed to do what we want.

[beauanderos]

Damn. I hate fakes. I'm sure some exists, but perhaps it would be significantly safer to buy 40%, or maybe Canadian 80%?

Dang - someone needs to create a electronic signature contact checker.

You mean like a Ryedale?

Coin comparators have a hard time with silver dimes, and Andy doesn't support his machines for that purpose.

I got lucky and managed to get a good one that does pull out the 90% from clad, but even mine has its limitations. 68Camaro is on the right track that we need to build something rather than relying on off the shelf parts which weren't designed to do what we want.

Even that's not foolproof. I recently received a Kennedy half that fooled a professional machine coin comparitor, unfortunately it was not detected until resale too long after original purchase, so I am keeping it as a "sample," rather than asking the first seller for a refund. BTW, it weighed light at 11.4 grams, and was a weak strike circumferentially through the lettering. And it sounds a "bit" different. Very easy to miss in a large lot though. Capable of fooling the experts who aren't taking the time to scrutinize EVERY coin in a large lot

It's the only bad coin I've found so far, but they're out there, for sure. Makes buying off of ebay pretty much a no go... how you gonna prove to the seller that they sold you that particular coin, when they claim it was switched and you're attempting feedback extortion. That's probably gonna wind up being another scam down the line, if it isn't already.... don't sell them, just slip them in and complain that they were sold to YOU! It will become a significant problem in time, however... even the danger of encountering a few fakes (diluting the worth of your purchase) is dwarfed by the certainty of the loss of your purchasing power if you do nothing to combat rampant inflation.

[beauanderos]

This whole episode raises another ugly question. Is there any sanctity in purchasing from online dealers? Even those with the best reputations? When they purchase large bulk lots from the public... do they have professional grade comparitors to scrutinize the coins, or are they merely running them thru coin counters like an LCS would??? Are we going to be forced to buy individual coins now, that one can instantly examine... preventing future sales of BIG lots that no one has sufficient time to evaluate individually? And yeah, not forcing China to shut down (as if that were possible) is merely part of a larger problem. You'll know how bad it is when you learn that JPMorgan has capitalized them (not beyond the scope of their duplicity, in my book). Of course... they do the same thing on a much grander scale... suckering people to buy worthless, non-metals back SLV and GLD ETF's

[Engineer]

Even that's not foolproof.

Agreed. Even doing a double sort on the rejects (running a clad sample), I still have to hand-sort nearly a roll per bag...and that's with it running loose enough to miss the slicks.

It works well enough to pull 90% out of circulation, but I'd be hating life if I was trying to use it to verify all the stuff coming through APMEX. They might do ok with a bank of machines set up with progressively tighter settings to pick up the slicks, but then they'd need people to keep them running...

[tedandcam]

I think I'm going to do some research on Archemedes technique. I have seen another member post on it some time back and it piqued my interest then. After seeing Nate's coins, I wonder if I could have anything. Volume and weight comparison seems to be foolproof. One of my kids is going to talk to his teacher today to find a good home version of this technique. Love them kids! Any thoughts from the board on the reliability of this technique. I was kinda suprised it was the last item on the e-bay link.

[IdahoCopper]

These are counterfeit US currency. The Secret Service and Treasury Dept. should be on this, but they are not. If we put our heads together and came up with a letter to send to all of our congresscritters, on the same day, do you think it would be enough pressure to get the SS/TD into action?

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

These are counterfeit US currency. The Secret Service and Treasury Dept. should be on this, but they are not. If we put our heads together and came up with a letter to send to all of our congresscritters, on the same day, do you think it would be enough pressure to get the SS/TD into action?

Nope.

[Lemon Thrower]

thanks for posting this.

as for online dealers, they check the stuff but not that well.

i have gotten clad halves and holed halves from them before.

on another occassion, i bought a tube of sovereigns and got a funny one. turned out to be a 1913 danish 20 kroner, less than a million ever made. a little heavier than a sov, about an extra $30 bucks in gold, so considering the clad halves i got from this guy over the years we are roughly even. plus, he doesn't deal in these less liquid ones (soup nazi) so he wouldn't want it back.

point is, these guys don't check their stuff that well if they are giving out extra gold, so if someone had fake 90% that looked like this they would skip right over it. they are not weighing and ring testing each coin. from the pic, the only one that would make me suspicious is the unusually shiny merc.

finally, i have to disagree that 90% is more likley to be faked. i still think it is less likely for two reasons. First, ASE's are larger, so its less work for the counterfeiter. Second, its easier to make a fake of a new coin than a fake that looks old. Third, ASE's have higher premiums, and most folks buy them in rolls and dont look at them. On the other hand, fake 90% mixed judiciously in a bag would be very hard to detect. This is just another reason to trade out of 90% now.

[Morsecode]

Ironic, isn't it? There was a time when the Chinese didn't trust American coin until verified.

[Hawkeye]

After looking at those fakes, I started to wonder if my approach of going through people I trust and big online dealers (APMEX and Provident, mostly) was still flawed. Just because I trust a person doesn't mean that they weren't fooled into buying a fake or just missing one in a lot. Even honest people make mistakes. And the big dealers probably aren't going to examine every single coin, especially dimes and quarters.

Maybe the safest play is to buy directly from the Mint (government or private). It might not help with reselling, but it would maybe give you a little more peace of mind.

[beauanderos]

After looking at those fakes, I started to wonder if my approach of going through people I trust and big online dealers (APMEX and Provident, mostly) was still flawed. Just because I trust a person doesn't mean that they weren't fooled into buying a fake or just missing one in a lot. Even honest people make mistakes. And the big dealers probably aren't going to examine every single coin, especially dimes and quarters.

Maybe the safest play is to buy directly from the Mint (government or private). It might not help with reselling, but it would maybe give you a little more peace of mind.

Don't buy from anyone that won't offer a return coin/replacement guarantee. I've converted mostly to buying Mint direct fractional .999 silver. At least I know the provenance of those pieces, even if you do pay a premium for the privilege.

[SoFa]

I guess it's not surprising.

It's very cheap to make fractional sized rounds (the private mints sell them for less than $1 over melt). Therefore it is cheap to make fake 90% coins.

Aging them is probably no more difficult than the minting process. You could dirty them up and then run them through a tumbler.

[mflugher]

1. Semi foolproof tester is XRF analyzer gun only $16k each, I figure if I get 1000 of you guys to buy one I can maybe afford one at $12k

2. Buying only from mint/over paranoia...
a. In the whole thread we have had 1 confirmed case of a fake being mixed into a lot. 1 measly half in what I presume to be tens of thousands of $ face 90% bought by this community.
b. The price of not hedging against inflation is far in excess of the cost of a few bad buys.
c. The cost of a few bad buys is far less than the extra premium of buying only from "orginal" mint sources
d. When its time to sell there is no way to prove you went to that extra expense to only purchase "original" mint sources and that extra premium goes out the window.
e. By publicizing what is currently a non problem we may create more of a problem in the future... How many people here have you seen say I will not buy a bullion bar over 10 oz of silver or 1 oz of gold because of the tungsten stories, again we are talking about a miniscule portion of the gold traded and about a dozen counterfeits ruined that market. How many criminals will see this being publicized and realize this is a good idea of their next scam? Are we potentially creating more of a problem than we are averting?


Just some food for thought.

[JerrySpringer]

I guess it is time now to audit the weights on the 90% coins in my collection and separate suspect, if any, coins to the side. Makes a good case to just stick with CRH'ing for the time being, even if that has meager returns usually. Also, copper cents look better and better as a choice metal to emphasize for bank runs. Down the road, we might get those spot metal values, ~ 2+ times face, in a reasonable time.

[beauanderos]

1. Semi foolproof tester is XRF analyzer gun only $16k each, I figure if I get 1000 of you guys to buy one I can maybe afford one at $12k

2. Buying only from mint/over paranoia...
a. In the whole thread we have had 1 confirmed case of a fake being mixed into a lot. 1 measly half in what I presume to be tens of thousands of $ face 90% bought by this community.
b. The price of not hedging against inflation is far in excess of the cost of a few bad buys.
c. The cost of a few bad buys is far less than the extra premium of buying only from "orginal" mint sources
d. When its time to sell there is no way to prove you went to that extra expense to only purchase "original" mint sources and that extra premium goes out the window.
e. By publicizing what is currently a non problem we may create more of a problem in the future... How many people here have you seen say I will not buy a bullion bar over 10 oz of silver or 1 oz of gold because of the tungsten stories, again we are talking about a miniscule portion of the gold traded and about a dozen counterfeits ruined that market. How many criminals will see this being publicized and realize this is a good idea of their next scam? Are we potentially creating more of a problem than we are averting?


Just some food for thought.

some good points you raise... I doubt however the "bad guys" go online to coin forums to get new ideas... the knowledge is widespread enough via published articles that our own speculation is not going to start new waves of criminality. And, yes, there ultimately might be a few less buyers than there would have been without disseminating such knowledge, but forewarned is forarmed... and I'd much rather see our core of members benefit from prepping than fall prey to misguided purchasing practices. It's too bad that honor is trampled by criminals without any integrity... but that's the world we live in nowadays... to claim otherwise might be naive. In years to come, with significant price rises... this will become a much thornier issue.

[beauanderos]

This situation is really no different than copper prospecting and getting rid of the zincs. We may be only experiencing the tip of the iceberg at this point in time ( who can really say?) but ALL those fake silver coins being produced by China are going somewhere. Every year, the existing pool of authentic silver is shrinking... and as the thinking goes "they aren't making 90% anymore." Well, sorry folks, but they ARE making 90% replicas... so with each passing year the problem will grow progressively worse. So the pool of investible silver at year one might be 100 million ounces with a 98% purity factor. Year 2 might see 80 million ounces with a 94% purity factor. Numbers for example drawn purely arbitrarily. The further you extrapolate into the future, the sooner the day arrives where I could imagine this being a very REAL problem. The water in the silver pool is evaporating, and it is being replenished by toxic rain.

Thus, I say that it only stands to reason to safeguard yourself as much as possible (now) by buying from those you regard as reputable sources (rather than strangers on ebay), and who will stand behind a promise to replace any fake coins you might encounter in purchasing from them. It also stands to reason, by the same rationale... that you would want to frontload your stash as quickly as possible, both to take advantage of current low prices, but also to avoid the eventual, inevitable flood of fraudulent silver that will someday be in circulation in the secondary market.

I'm going to write to APMEX and inquire how they deal with these issues.

[Lemon Thrower]

Ray, pls explain what you mean by "frontload" your stash.

personally, i'm taking advantage of the high premiums on 90% to trade into more ounces of .999, so going forward it should be less of an issue for me. I don't think the Chinese are counterfeiting 1986 Santa Claus rounds yet.

[Thogey]

Ray, pls explain what you mean by "frontload" your stash.

personally, i'm taking advantage of the high premiums on 90% to trade into more ounces of .999, so going forward it should be less of an issue for me. I don't think the Chinese are counterfeiting 1986 Santa Claus rounds yet.

Sorry LT

You are not safe
Guangdong is in the 1974 christmas silver business at a buck fifty each
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/64642 ... Z_999.html

[68Camaro]

Ray, pls explain what you mean by "frontload" your stash.

He simply means buy as much as possible now while the marketplace is less contaminated. Most of us that have been in it awhile have already done that, so we're mostly concerned about additions going forward. It's the newbies that have the greatest risk here.

[68Camaro]

I think I'm going to do some research on Archemedes technique. I have seen another member post on it some time back and it piqued my interest then. After seeing Nate's coins, I wonder if I could have anything. Volume and weight comparison seems to be foolproof. One of my kids is going to talk to his teacher today to find a good home version of this technique. Love them kids! Any thoughts from the board on the reliability of this technique. I was kinda suprised it was the last item on the e-bay link.

That technique is essentially a density test. The issue with it is that is is possible with silver to duplicate the density with a base compound/alloy. The cheap fakes of the past didn't do that, but it is possible they could head that way, if they haven't done so already.

No, we need a non-destructive elemental signature test that uses measurement of some frequency/signature of electro-magnetic wave (regardless of frequency, even if x-ray) either through-transmission or pulse-echo. And it needs to be relatively cheap.

[68Camaro]

1. Semi foolproof tester is XRF analyzer gun only $16k each, I figure if I get 1000 of you guys to buy one I can maybe afford one at $12k

2. Buying only from mint/over paranoia...
a. In the whole thread we have had 1 confirmed case of a fake being mixed into a lot. 1 measly half in what I presume to be tens of thousands of $ face 90% bought by this community.
b. The price of not hedging against inflation is far in excess of the cost of a few bad buys.
c. The cost of a few bad buys is far less than the extra premium of buying only from "orginal" mint sources
d. When its time to sell there is no way to prove you went to that extra expense to only purchase "original" mint sources and that extra premium goes out the window.
e. By publicizing what is currently a non problem we may create more of a problem in the future... How many people here have you seen say I will not buy a bullion bar over 10 oz of silver or 1 oz of gold because of the tungsten stories, again we are talking about a miniscule portion of the gold traded and about a dozen counterfeits ruined that market. How many criminals will see this being publicized and realize this is a good idea of their next scam? Are we potentially creating more of a problem than we are averting?


Just some food for thought.

Yep - the commercial ones are runnning $16K+

http://compare.ebay.com/like/4004345676 ... s&var=sbar

I'm not freaked out about what I've got, but it does cast a pall over the entire market that I don't like. I would like to see a rational inexpensive solution created, offered.

[currencydebasement]

I don't buy a lot of silver and what I buy is mostly foreign. Though I feel like I have encountered a lot of fakes. I have seen fake Morgans and Peace Dollars (of course), fake Australian Florins and Fake Peruvian Sols. They came in large lots, small lots and different dealers.

Most disturbingly I once saw hundreds of listings selling common, recent date, base metal, international coin reproductions. They were marked as such. I think applying an "economic" argument to the production of silver fakes is not a good one. I can go online and order all kinds of custom metal nicknacks from China for nothing. I think getting $2 for a 2.3g piece of metal is a fantastic return for these manufacturers.

The fakes are out there, there are good ones, and you don't want to get stuck buying one. For me? I buy smaller quantities of silver from many sources. I may still get fakes but I think I reduce my chances of getting hit hard all at once. This probably won't work for you large scale buyers. Be careful, use the simple tools available to us to ferret out most of the fakes and hope for the best. That's probably all we can do.

[beauanderos]

I don't buy a lot of silver and what I buy is mostly foreign. Though I feel like I have encountered a lot of fakes. I have seen fake Morgans and Peace Dollars (of course), fake Australian Florins and Fake Peruvian Sols. They came in large lots, small lots and different dealers.

Most disturbingly I once saw hundreds of listings selling common, recent date, base metal, international coin reproductions. They were marked as such. I think applying an "economic" argument to the production of silver fakes is not a good one. I can go online and order all kinds of custom metal nicknacks from China for nothing. I think getting $2 for a 2.3g piece of metal is a fantastic return for these manufacturers.

The fakes are out there, there are good ones, and you don't want to get stuck buying one. For me? I buy smaller quantities of silver from many sources. I may still get fakes but I think I reduce my chances of getting hit hard all at once. This probably won't work for you large scale buyers. Be careful, use the simple tools available to us to ferret out most of the fakes and hope for the best. That's probably all we can do.

Good answer

[goodcents]

I buy a lot of NGC MS69 ASE's. If you buy them right there is a premium of course but I feel pretty secure in knowing they are real and when i buy in bulk they really are not that bad in terms of price. Are there people faking slabbed ASE's? I figured with Hologram and other things built in I'd be pretty safe. And the work involved to fake would be pretty rough.

It's very scary to think you are buying clad thinking all along you are getting real silver.
Thanks for posting this thread and to everyone chiming in with their tips/ideas

Joe