90% and .999 counterfeits/fakes....what do we do next?

[neilgin1]

Brethren, gang, crew,

first off, i want to say that Nate, for what he did, by shining a big bright light on this, is a true leader, and has my complete respect, and gratitude. If RC has a Medal of Honor , or a Silver Star commendationm he should be a shoo in, its a slam dunk.

if we dont get stirred to action, we have only ourselves to blame.

at this point, you mght ask, "what can we do"?...individually very little, but as group, with our base of knowledge, and years of experience, with focused objectives, we can do plenty, even to the point of affecting trade, setting standards.

let me just, i'm particurally wild about using and communicating with dot gov org's and types, but we're going to need firepower. How that plays out, i'm not certain.

from what i read in the previous thread, enemy number 1 is alibaba dot come, and its all chinese, these are where the primary sellers use to sell their "product"...they'll come later....if you go on their website, you can punch in every single 20th century 90% American silver coinage made as fakes,,,it will boggle your mind. and infuriate you...it did me.

my gut tells me, the very first thing i think that needs to be done is info , which would seem to be a book. (now recognize, i'm just throwing ideas out there).

This book should be be anywhere from 24 to 48 pages long, maybe 5 by 9, slick pages, so when the side by sides are done, these pictures, zoomed in for the various "tells".

we shouldnt bite off more than we can chew; meaning this book, should cover the period of 1878 to 1964, for the 90's, and of course 1986-2013 for the ASEs.

covering :

Morgans 1878-1921
Peace 1921-35
Barber dimes, quarters, and halves, 1892-1916
Mercury dimes 1916-45
Roosevelt dimes 1946-64
Standing Liberty Quarters 1916-1930
Washington Quarters 1932-1964
Walking Liberty halves 1916-47
Franklin Halves 1948-63
Kennesy Halves 1964 (add 1965-70 as 40%'ers, if there are docemented fakes)
Ike Silver Dollars 40% 1971-74, and 1976's.
ASES 1986-2013

keeping this confined to US coinage would serve the purpose of bringing Treasury in.

but that first definitive guide to discerninng fakes is crucial. ok, how to make it happen. just a suggestion, RC dot org, becomes a non for profit 501c3 so that dedicated members can throw into the kick to make an initial self published first run of 1,000 books happen.

one can counter, "oh geez, we dont want to really make a lot of noise that there is a potential problem". that would be a valid point, but as sure as silver coinage increases in value, so will the number of counterfeiters...if this cancer is not dealt with swiftly, it will get worse.

sure this cancer will get worse, but certain steps and education, this book is a first step, the second step is dealng with primary supplers, and the secondary market. some rough brush strokes?

this brazen selling from China of "souvenier" silver plated coins, has to be stopped or driven underground, thats where Treasury and the legislature comes in, slap a 100 to 200% on these counterfeits, subject any American buyer of "souvneir" coins to penalties that would result in both fine and imprisonment, ask the grading services, to join this effort, and of they dont, fuel up your pens, make life very comfortable for them...the other big dealers in lets say 90% bags, hold their feet to the fire, set standards of certification.

as far as Ebay, same thing, feet to the fire. Ebay is a company very cognizinant of their "brand", paint then into a corner where the perception in regards to the sanctity of their coin auctions is diminished, as long as they let any scoundrel sell silver plated coins that have been "minted"

just general thoughts.....the book the mosr specific, Nate is this simething you would like to aithor?

[TwoPenniesEarned]

This affects us all. Maybe we're savvy enough to avoid buying them in large quantity and getting screwed, but Joe Public is gonna get it. After he does, our resale market will dry up and we'll be stuck selling to dealers at spot, and needing to submit to long drawn out weighing sessions, destructive testing, etc. Perhaps it will be used as an excuse to register us.

I do not think government will help us because they are actively involved or at least complicit in suppressing PM prices in lockstep with their suppression of interest rates. A bunch of people being burned by fakes when they attempt to buy PM's helps this effort immensely. It will get big publicity just as the naked shorts aught to be having the spotlight shone on them, ie during the next big run up in price.

They swat teamed Bernard von NotHaus and stole his stack and charged him with counterfeiting for minting bullion rounds that look nothing like US coinage but which encouraged the use of sound money. They will do nothing about these because it warns staying away from sound money.

I think we need to throw our support behind Bernard von NotHaus and expose the duplicity of all of this. Sunshine is the best antiseptic!

[Engineer]

Asking bureaucrats to help will accomplish nothing, but politicians understand blackmail and opportunism. You just have to think like a lobbyist, and do the legwork to put them in the correct position to serve themselves.

I'd recommend starting with some freedom of information act requests to find out what, if anything, is being done by the secret service in regards to the open availability of these fakes. Their answers would make good conspiracy fodder for ZeroHedge and the like...and once the story reaches critical mass, an opportunistic politician will run with it.

If you prefer blackmail, you could mail assortments of fakes to self-proclaimed "strong dollar" politicians along with a list of links where they were purchased, and a list of their peers who received similar packages. Finish up your note by telling them you plan to publish a list of who takes action, and who doesn't.

[Aqualung48]

I'd recommend starting with some freedom of information act requests to find out what, if anything, is being done by the secret service in regards to the open availability of these fakes. Their answers would make good conspiracy fodder for ZeroHedge and the like...and once the story reaches critical mass, an opportunistic politician will run with it.

FOIA would not work. An exception to the release is information about an ongoing investigation. They could claim this exception and it would likely be upheld by a court if the requester had the cahones to file a lawsuit when the information is denied. I have cut and pasted the law below, to place this exception in context. I have edited out some portions, to make this exception stand out.

The Freedom of Information Act
5 U.S.C. § 552, As Amended By
Public Law No. 104-231, 110 Stat. 3048
§ 552. Public information; agency rules, opinions, orders, records, and proceedings
(a) Each agency shall make available to the public information as follows:
(b) This section does not apply to matters that are--
"(7) records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information (A) could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, (B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication, (C) could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, (D) could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source, including a State, local, or foreign agency or authority or any private institution which furnished information on a confidential basis, and, in the case of a record or information compiled by a criminal law enforcement authority in the course of a criminal investigation or by an agency conducting a lawful national security intelligence investigation, information furnished by a confidential source, (E) would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law, or (F) could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual;"

[Engineer]

FOIA would not work.

They'd work in the sense that the government wouldn't provide information. Everybody loves a good conspiracy.

I don't think any of us would expect something meaningful to come out of FOIA requests, but they'd still be worthwhile in that the feds wouldn't be able to show efforts to stop blatant counterfeiting.

[IdahoCopper]

Grand Juries are your friends.

Get a lot of documentation, as is being discussed; then take it to the foreman(s) of the local federal Grand Juries in many states. Demand that they take action by bringing federal charges against the most appropriate counterfeiting parties.

This may also be a viable action at State-level, and county-level Grand Juries.

[TwoPenniesEarned]

Just found a very good looking tester for bullion coins and US 90% silver dollars.

http://www.thefisch.com

This guy needs to make a set of testers dedicated specifically to US and CDN junk silver! Let's all email him and beg!

[madman326]

i love neils idea, but think the government wouldnt help or it would take many years to get things in motion. many a committee would need to be formed to research the idea of forming another committee. look at how long the mint has taken to decide if there is a cheaper way to make pennies and nickels. i really really love neils idea of publishing/printing our own book or guide to identifying fake silver and gold coins. computers have made small batch printing very affordable from the little i have read about it. if a group of realcenters would pleadge say $20 a book/guide, money could be raised quickly for printing costs. if enough people prepay and the cost is reduced for quantity discount, money could be reimbursed or the remaining books could be sold to others here who did not get in on the initial collection of funds. maybe a profit could even be realized, even though i know that is not the ultimate goal of the book. just my two copper cents.

[madman326]

Just found a very good looking tester for bullion coins and US 90% silver dollars.

http://www.thefisch.com

This guy needs to make a set of testers dedicated specifically to US and CDN junk silver! Let's all email him and beg!

Ray is all about the fisch scales. kind of expensive, but i trust Ray!
not sure if they offer quantity discounts, maybe a group buy is in order for the future.

[NDFarmer]

I know nothing about this scale. I watched the video. In the video is says their tester will detect all fake silver coins that are the wrong size, weight, and shape. Well that's fine that's a start but how does it check the metal content? These counterfeits are getting better all the time.

[TwoPenniesEarned]

I know nothing about this scale. I watched the video. In the video is says their tester will detect all fake silver coins that are the wrong size, weight, and shape. Well that's fine that's a start but how does it check the metal content? These counterfeits are getting better all the time.

If it is the correct diameter, thickness, and weight than it would need to be pretty much a perfect fake. None exist as far as I know. I suppose if you drilled it out and put lead in some areas and aluminum in others or something it might work...but that would be far too much work for a silver coin. The only metal similar enough to gold to do that would be Tungsten and it is brittle and hard to work with. I think these are a very good start. Expensive though!

[neilgin1]

i love neils idea, but think the government wouldnt help or it would take many years to get things in motion. many a committee would need to be formed to research the idea of forming another committee. look at how long the mint has taken to decide if there is a cheaper way to make pennies and nickels. i really really love neils idea of publishing/printing our own book or guide to identifying fake silver and gold coins. computers have made small batch printing very affordable from the little i have read about it. if a group of realcenters would pleadge say $20 a book/guide, money could be raised quickly for printing costs. if enough people prepay and the cost is reduced for quantity discount, money could be reimbursed or the remaining books could be sold to others here who did not get in on the initial collection of funds. maybe a profit could even be realized, even though i know that is not the ultimate goal of the book. just my two copper cents.

i've re-thought my initial post, i didbt do it on my own. Many time people form into communties, or a "communitas"...(NO! not 'communism"!!) sometimes these communites are based on the Faith...or a faith...or a common interest, and within these communities, there are elders. They are men, who's wisdom is apparent, and there are several here, who i regard as elders, one of them wrote me, and reminded me of my very own words, written previously......way of the coyote the way you go or be, is a coyote, stealth, silent, in packs that cooperate.

once upon a time, i was brought to trust in institutions, that now i have no trust, they have lost that trust, hence i think it would be foolish to involve oneself with any of the "officials", or fo-ay requests.....or making a lot of noise....anything that would draw undue notice....and its not that we are doing anything WRONG...coz we are NOT....its just the times we live.

But the book idea?.....YES, that is a KEY KEY element....if you want to talk about "elders" serving the community, its that right there, and i sure hop maybe someone like Nate would pick that ball up....he's got the wisdom and knowledge, this is the kind of slender volumne that A. would be invaluable, and B. sell way behind this forum...and i would more than willing to pitch to that effort.

other than that, i'm not making calls, writing any org.....just staying quiet, the elder is right, "way of the coyote", neil

[beauanderos]

A book would be fine... and with downloading capabilities of "ebooks" there would be no pubishing costs. We already have tools like PCGS photogrades available, I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to have Nate put together his research and submit it to them.... free of copyright infringement, meant to benefit all, and have THEM produce an online link that featured pictures of known fakes. Lord knows, they must have received enough of them over the years, and who better to acknowledge the quantity of the fakes, a census (I'm sure they keep records) of the various dates and numbers they have encountered, and comments as to the quality of those counterfeited coins? Perhaps their own graders could produce a small online edition of indicators they observe for in determining authenticity of the submissions they receive? With the faked slabs emerging... it's for sure that they know there's a problem. Why not aim our letter writing at the third party graders asking them to implement our idea to assist the public in not becoming victims of this ever growing scam, rather than at some govt bureacracy... which could well result in shining an unwanted spotlight upon our clandestine little community. We have few rights any longer, who wants to wind up on another gov't watchlist? I don't The author of that recent piece for numismaster might also be one whose support it might be wise to enlist, he's a public figurehead for the coin industry already (Patrick Heller)

[Rosco]

I would buy the book that shows how to detect in any form but would prefer a
{4" by 8"} format that would fit in Back pocket.

?Did Pay Pay buy Coinflation would they be a Forum to Put this out in Circulation for general public??

[pennypicker]

I would buy the book that shows how to detect in any form but would prefer a
{4" by 8"} format that would fit in Back pocket.

?Did Pay Pay buy Coinflation would they be a Forum to Put this out in Circulation for general public??

Fake bullion coins is just a by-product of our society. Our politicians (fakes) say one thing and then do another when its to their advantage for re-election. Hollywood actresses (fakes) every day pay a team of make-up artists & hair stylists to transform them from mediocrity to blazing beauties. Top athletes (fakes) like Lance Armstrong break the rules and compromise the integrity of their sport soley for big money and fame. Reality shows on TV (fakes) stage almost all the juicy scenes so the "sheeple" public will tune in and be entertained while the ratings go up and the stations take in huge advertising revenue.

Up and down the ladder of American society we have become saturated with fakes & fraud. Even Harvard, the great bastion of American Elitism, was found to have a cheating ring and drug selling ring among it's student body!

Fraud is only going to get worse in this country as our standard of living deteriorates. So I taught myself years ago to limit my exposure (not buying on ebay), doing my homework & educating myself, and making the most informed decisions I can based on what I see and (not) what a seller says.