Fake 90% Silver

[Chief]

For those wishing to refute anything I've said in this post, kindly provide concrete evidence of every fake coin you claim to exist.

I've always bought from reputitible dealers, mostly on this site. I recently ended up with a fake '64 Ken. Sellers, especially those who deal in bulk, don't have time to weigh or examine every damn coin. I just happened to notice this oddball and exchanced it with no trouble. Since then, I've been weighing every '64 Ken I get. The thing is once you find one fake, you suspect there are more out there. 90% dimes or 40% halves have to be the safest American coins out there, but to me '64 Ken's are the king of 90%. They are (almost) always full weight and easily recognizable. Scary to think that they are being faked.

Not trying to be a dick, but just sharing my experience with a fake 90% coin. They do exist and they can fool people who know what they are doing. Also, they put doubt in the minds of people who have held them.

Welcome to Realcent! I like your style. You'll be a great addition to our forum if you keep asking important questions and provoking thought.

Here's some pics of that fake '64...

Regular 12.5g 1964


Worn WL Half


Fake 1964 Half

[Engineer]

Show me one link to a website with confirmed evidence that small denomination 90% silver coins are being counterfeited.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Mercury-Dime/506351_211095480.html

I can't seem to find that information anywhere on the Internet, but I'm probably not an expert on that either

You don't need to be an expert. I found that link in under 30 seconds just by typing "silver coin copy" into a search engine.

[natsb88]

And what evidence do you have to support your opinion that "nobody bothers to make fake 90%"? Show me one link to a website with confirmed evidence that small denomination 90% silver coins are being counterfeited. No links to people's statements/opinions, or to what they've heard from someone else, but only to sites with verifiable facts that said counterfeiting is currently in progress (or was recently stopped by the authorities)! I can't seem to find that information anywhere on the Internet, but I'm probably not an expert on that either -- I've only been searching the Internet since the early 1980s, and you know how dumb us old-timers can be.... Just a newbie at this stuff, you know -- but somehow in all these years I've never bought (or seen) a small denomination counterfeit 90% silver coin! I'm going to put that on my bucket list!

I'm confused. You are telling me the coins in my picture don't exist? I have them in my possession. I took the picture. It's not an "opinion," it's a fact.

[Engineer]

You are telling me the coins in my picture don't exist? I have them in my possession. I took the picture. It's not an "opinion," it's a fact.

Trolls pay no attention to facts.

[Rodebaugh]

[angel2004]

So how well do you all think that a local dealer would check 'junk' silver when they buy and resell it? Just wondering. Thanks.

[Rodebaugh]

So how well do you all think that a local dealer would check 'junk' silver when they buy and resell it? Just wondering. Thanks.

Depends on the dealer. I personaly inspect all the coin that passes through my hands very closely.

Fake varietys I have seen to date:
$5 Lib
$3 Prin
$2.5 Indian
Morgan
Walker
Merc

[beauanderos]

So how well do you all think that a local dealer would check 'junk' silver when they buy and resell it? Just wondering. Thanks.

Depends on the dealer. I personaly inspect all the coin that passes through my hands very closely.

Fake varietys I have seen to date:
$5 Lib
$3 Prin
$2.5 Indian
Morgan
Walker
Merc

1964 Kennedy, 1922 Peace (it only weighed 21 grams, should be near 26.7)

[theo]

You are telling me the coins in my picture don't exist? I have them in my possession. I took the picture. It's not an "opinion," it's a fact.

Trolls pay no attention to facts.

I think calling him a troll is a little strong. He had some interesting points, but perhaps a little too sure of himself for my taste. Having the vast experience he has is a great advantage, however experience can also work against you. Just because 90% fakes are not a large concern at this moment does not mean they won't be in future. Given the current fiscal/monetary situation I believe it that the motivation has never been stronger create these fakes. My question is will this apparent trickle of fake 90% coins coming into this country turn into a flood? Put another way 90% coins are safe to buy right now, but what about in three to five years??

And what evidence do you have to support your opinion that "nobody bothers to make fake 90%"? Show me one link to a website with confirmed evidence that small denomination 90% silver coins are being counterfeited. No links to people's statements/opinions, or to what they've heard from someone else, but only to sites with verifiable facts that said counterfeiting is currently in progress (or was recently stopped by the authorities)! I can't seem to find that information anywhere on the Internet, but I'm probably not an expert on that either -- I've only been searching the Internet since the early 1980s, and you know how dumb us old-timers can be.... Just a newbie at this stuff, you know -- but somehow in all these years I've never bought (or seen) a small denomination counterfeit 90% silver coin! I'm going to put that on my bucket list!

I'm confused. You are telling me the coins in my picture don't exist? I have them in my possession. I took the picture. It's not an "opinion," it's a fact.

Something else that RidgeWiz is not taking into consideration is the fact that Natsb88 is a well-respected, long-time member of this community who has no history of making wild claims. If Nate says he bought fake coins from China; I believe him.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Here's a bay guide to pick apart, tells you how to avoid these coins so you don't have to worry about collecting them.
http://reviews.ebay.com/15-EASIEST-WAYS ... 0005091228

Thanks for this thread and thanks also for the ebay guide to fakes!

"5. Check the edge of the coin for any verdigris, or green patina caused by the copper leaching through the nickel and zinc, or silver plating. Silver turns black with oxidation; copper turns green. If you see any green on the edges of the coin is it almost always a fake. "

I recently sold a large lot of silver dollars (200) back to the LCS I bought them from. I had also purchased plastic holders for the dollars to fit into. These turned out to have chlorine in the plastic. It tainted over one third of the silver dollars green! I complained to my LCS guy about that, and he told me not to worry, they were all low grade coins and would not matter. That sounded rather odd to me, but he was buying them so I didn't give it another thought! When I read item 5 (above) the 'ol light bulb came on! Hey!!! These were fake silvers!! The only comfort I have in all this is the guy that sold fake Morgans to me bought them back at a higher price!

[beauanderos]

The purported coin that is linked IS NOT marked replica or copy. The listing calls it that. There is not anything to keep unscrupulous sellers from acquiring these items and duping unwary buyers... those with eyes wide shut.

[theo]

Yes I agree. In the feedback section, one buyer complained that the wieght was not 2.5 grams. Also, did you notice that the prices were pretty close to the melt value? Why buy these coins for $2 when you can get the real thing for 20 - 30 cents more?

[natsb88]

So you can lead a horse to water, but the horse might just stand there and vehemently declare that water doesn't exist

RidgeWiz, I don't think anybody is saying "stop buying silver." At least I'm not. A large part of my business is selling silver, both .999 and 90%, so obviously I don't want that to happen. And nobody is claiming that the 90% supply is riddled with fakes already. I'm simply saying that people should be aware that there is indeed fake run-of-the-mill 90% out there, just like there is fake .999. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending it can't possibly exist just because you haven't seen it first hand isn't going to affect any of us, it's only going to affect you.

The simple fact of the matter is that China is making all kinds of fakes (everything from lowly common date Mercs up to fake PCGS and NGC slabbed double eagles), and the population of such counterfeits is only going to increase over time. The US government wouldn't be able to completely stop the flow of fakes even if they tried, and they certainly won't be sifting through all the coins already in the country to try to pull out what is already here. The adage "do your own due diligence" applies now more than ever. It is up to each buyer to protect themselves, and knowledge is power.

[neilgin1]

Show me one link to a website with confirmed evidence that small denomination 90% silver coins are being counterfeited.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Mercury-Dime/506351_211095480.html

I can't seem to find that information anywhere on the Internet, but I'm probably not an expert on that either

You don't need to be an expert. I found that link in under 30 seconds just by typing "silver coin copy" into a search engine.

oh no.....every single time, i go look at those links and see those chin....chinese fugazi's my stomach starts to churn, i get this headache, coz then i start to very very angry, and start thinking of the bad things i want to the factories that fabricate this stuff THAT WILL KILL us! it'll kill the market for 90's, and all these damn gun grabbers, and butt worshipers, i wish they'd pay attention to important things like the intergrity of the currency for piss' sake!!

serious, i'm gonna medicine and lay down a spell.

Hey Ridge, welcome aboard....this calm quiet corner of the Internet is kind of like a cyber version of "Cheers"...know what i mean?...its a bar where everybody knows your name, and MERCIFULLY, thank a Loving God, we all get along, not an ill word wrote...brothers...for real....Nate's the real deal, runs the Cave...y'know?....so when he gives me a heads up, i pay attention.......so, y'know, welcome aboard.

[68Camaro]

OT: I was hopeful that RidgeWiz might be a great new member but there is something in the posts that does not ring right. To contribute to any on-line community you do need to be able to read for content and to follow logical thought. While all of us have, at one time or other, mis-read or mis-interpreted something and responded badly in a post, we've realized (usually quickly) on re-reading and reflection that we were wrong or had mis-understood, understood why, and were able to apologize and/or re-connect back on-topic to the correct part of the thread.

I don't understand why but in this case it isn't happening. The long-time RC posters above - who are experts in their areas - could hardly have been more clear in their posts about the scope/content, intent of their concern/work, or their discoveries, and RidgeWiz could hardly have been more off-base. Certainly RidgeWay's first post and maybe second could have been a mis-understanding, but inability to come back on track after that is a mystery. None of the things I could attribute it to are positive. I hope we can re-set some attitudes and find some positive collaboration. Elsewise there is no point.

[IdahoCopper]

I followed the link to the Mercury Dime page. Only one side of the coin is shown. When you click on the links on that page for other coins, some of them have an image of both sides. One side is clearly ugly-stamped: "Replica".

Since the Mercury Dime page only shows one side, we cannot know for certain if the other side is ugly-stamped, or not.

[beauanderos]

I followed the link to the Mercury Dime page. Only one side of the coin is shown. When you click on the links on that page for other coins, some of them have an image of both sides. One side is clearly ugly-stamped: "Replica".

Since the Mercury Dime page only shows one side, we cannot know for certain if the other side is ugly-stamped, or not.

I clicked on the first one pictured, it will show both sides, neither marked copy or replica. I only looked at one.

[ThePowersThatBe]

RidgeWiz sent an email requesting that his account and posts be deleted...

[natsb88]

My god! Coins marketed as "Replicas" and clearly marked as "Copy" (of the real thing), and you submit that as proof small denomination 90% silver coins are being counterfeited? Did you think I wasn't going to check your link?

I can see you people are desperately defending your turf! First I'm a newbie, then a troll, and now a presumptive idiot. I'm wasting my time! Kindly ask the Administrator to delete all my posts!

I followed the link to the Mercury Dime page. Only one side of the coin is shown. When you click on the links on that page for other coins, some of them have an image of both sides. One side is clearly ugly-stamped: "Replica".

Since the Mercury Dime page only shows one side, we cannot know for certain if the other side is ugly-stamped, or not.

None of the fakes in my photo are marked on either side.

[algae21]

Being a relative newbie to silver, I'm very appreciative that Nate started this thread . I'm also looking forward to the comparisons he mentioned putting up on his site.

Of course fakes exist and the only protection is through learning and vigilance, thus my kudos to Nate. It doesn't scare me away from silver one bit. Nate's just turned me into a "smarter" hoarder... and that's a good thing. Money's too tight these days to just throw it away without understanding the risks.

Thanks Nate!

[IdahoCopper]

I followed the link to the Mercury Dime page. Only one side of the coin is shown. When you click on the links on that page for other coins, some of them have an image of both sides. One side is clearly ugly-stamped: "Replica".

Since the Mercury Dime page only shows one side, we cannot know for certain if the other side is ugly-stamped, or not.

I clicked on the first one pictured, it will show both sides, neither marked copy or replica. I only looked at one.

Dang, I forgot to scroll down the page, I see it now. Thanks, Beau.

[scyther]

RidgeWiz sent an email requesting that his account and posts be deleted...

That would explain it. How generous of you to grant his request, even if it makes the thread a bit confusing to read. I'm glad he's gone, he seemed like a real idiot. I guess some people just get really insecure when they realize their hoard might be contaminated and don't want to face reality. I mean, really, why wouldn't there be fake 90% when you can make such an easy profit on it? $5 of silver made out of 5 cents of copper... sounds pretty lucrative.

[beauanderos]

RidgeWiz sent an email requesting that his account and posts be deleted...

That would explain it. How generous of you to grant his request, even if it makes the thread a bit confusing to read. I'm glad he's gone, he seemed like a real idiot. I guess some people just get really insecure when they realize their hoard might be contaminated and don't want to face reality. I mean, really, why wouldn't there be fake 90% when you can make such an easy profit on it? $5 of silver made out of 5 cents of copper... sounds pretty lucrative.

the reality is that fake 90% IS a problem right now, although no one knows how big it is. Most likely our 90% is WAY more than 90% secure at present, but it is becoming a problem, one that will only grow worse with time. Just be careful on those Craigslist purchases or ebay Buy-it-Now's that seem to be too good to be true. They are.

[Engineer]

the reality is that fake 90% IS a problem right now, although no one knows how big it is. Most likely our 90% is WAY more than 90% secure at present, but it is becoming a problem, one that will only grow worse with time. Just be careful on those Craigslist purchases or ebay Buy-it-Now's that seem to be too good to be true. They are.

I agree with beauanderos. Yes there are some fakes floating around, but the chances of finding fake bullion grade 90% seems to be much lower than the odds of getting fake high end golf clubs.

With that being said, it's always a good idea to keep test equipment handy (at the minimum a good scale and magnet) to verify weights and eliminate the obvious fakes.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Natsb88,

I would once again like to thank you for posting this thread. Over the years I had built up what I thought was a trusting relationship with a few LCS guys in my hometown. I would love to buy silver dollars that had lost their numismatic value because "someone cleaned them". They were in good shape and rather close to their original weight, so my thoughts were they would be very good to have when TSHTF. If these guys had silver for sale, I trusted it was the real deal.

I feel like a Donnie Dimwit right now. I am so lucky the LCS guy bought them back in spite of roughly a third of them having a slight green tint to them. Why did he do that? My guess is he had to keep the ruse going. If he had rejected them as fakes, he knew full well who I had purchased them from (HIM). And I knew silver tarnishes black instead of green! Pennies turn green. I was asleep at the wheel.

I look forward to your write-up on fakes and how to detect them at your web-site.

Muchas gracias! Domo arigato gozaimasu!