Did you do it?

[Jonflyfish]

Or it could be that when the price drops, they sell out (or start running low), and it takes a while to get new inventory in. When the price drops, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell. And there might not be enough silver in one ounce/ten ounce form available to meet demand. I think it says on Provident Metals that they had 100,000 new rounds made to meet demand. That takes a little while to do.

And even if you want to say the dealers are all conspiring to "extort" us by charging the market price, how can you fault us for buying (I didn't, by the way- haven't since the day before the fall) when we didn't have a cheaper alternative for physical short of taking delivery of a 5,000 ounce contract, and the price might have come up again before premiums went down? Were we supposed to miss the opportunity to buy at multi-year lows to protest high premiums?

Unfortunately, you are misquoting me and twisting what I said into something else. I said that SOME dealers, not "All" as you misrepresented, were extorting in the market. When the basis spreads explode to $7-11 spread over spot for an ASE I can't imagine anyone would not see that fungible ASE priced in an illiquid shop at the far end of the extortion basis spike that was fully correlated to the inverse price movement in spot, to not be anything else but steering the un-knowledgeable buyer into extortion. You also suggested that "when prices drop, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell". I disagree. Some were buying and some were selling. No evidence to suggest any bias. There are plenty of alternatives to taking delivery of 5,000 oz at COMEX. If you were buying in that range you would know.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Agree friend. It's the life and times of making the retail market what it is. Some folks will argue that paying extremely high commissions is honorable.
I prefer to take harsh criticisms and ire invoked stabs and jabs for disagreeing and warning my fellow friends of the contrary.
To me, there is more honor in that. I prefer to be lynched in a forum knowing that I did something to avoid my neighbor from getting ripped off.
Cheers!

Wow, we must have really upset you that you have to come back here a month later crying about it. People didn't agree with you. Get over it.

Um, no. I have been extremely busy with work. So, like anyone, I come and go when it is convenient. There is no obligation or schedule to post on a forum of this nature. Such reasoning doesn't match your immature, false, and mis-characterizing suggestion.
Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

What is the premium on 1000oz COMEX bars? If one buys a "postion" in those, how soon can one stand for delivery?

Spot (hence where the term originated), Readily.

Cheers!

Don't you have to buy 5 of those at a time to take delivery? Not many of us can afford it. Also, is there a charge for taking delivery?

COMEX acceptance bars are 1000 oz each. You can buy them individually from many sources. The charge is Spot to spot + negligible depending on the volume.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

....yeh...ok.....i'm sorry, but I cant help it. enjoy....great film as well.

You aren't sorry. Unfortunately, you are ill. Put down the bottle, the pills and seek help sir.

Cheers!

[johnbrickner]

Did you hedge long ago and start laying off some of the hedges, taking the gains to buy more PMs?
We talked a lot about that in the past. Met some harsh criticism, but that's alright.
Hope nobody fell for the huge premium rip offs we talked about recently. Met some harsh critics about that too.
That's alright. Markets are markets. Premiums paid by retail buyers to cover dealers who didn't hedge. Some were happy to oblige.
Now with stock being replenished at lower cost, the premiums are much improved.
Nice checking in. Hope all is well.
Best to you.
Cheers!

Jonflyfish:

Hedging
I did not hedge. But, I like the idea of the strategy. I personally don't feel comfortable with futures, plus they are a bit out of my league. However, covered calls or put options would be tolerable. Perhaps an ETF (or leveraged ETF) that pays off in a down market. I would be open to and appreciate any suggestions you might suggest for the next time around. Also, feel free to increase my awareness as to a good time to start hedging.

Premiums
No, I did not fall for the premium rip offs, and while premiums are currently lower I'm still not buying retail in protest. Prices will have to fall a bit more for me to bite on a silver lure.

I prefer to take harsh criticisms and ire invoked stabs and jabs for disagreeing and warning my fellow friends of the contrary.
To me, there is more honor in that. I prefer to be lynched in a forum knowing that I did something to avoid my neighbor from getting ripped off.
Cheers!

I personally have no problem telling you I appreciate your words and Honor your stand. Never easy taking the contrary or minority view and standing by your principles. Especially when the majority consider and tell you, you're wrong.

Sincerely, my take is if you are not seeing both sides of the picture or hearing both sides of a story, you are not getting the whole picture or story. In this day and age, we need to be seeing from every angle that is available to us. I am grateful to be able to see our world thru yours, Neil's, engineer's, Ray's, and every other RC member's eyes. And for this I HONOR YOU ALL

[Jonflyfish]

Today Spot =$22.26
Tonight, I'm expecting $282M in FRNs to come in, after taxes.
That works out to over 12,665,000 ounces, or 2,533 five-thousand ounce contracts.

If I place my order for 2,533 contracts on Monday, how long do I need to wait before I send my armored cars to go pick them up?

You and I know that you are speaking hypothetically.
However, one call to a primary dealer at the LBME and that order can be filled and sent on a vessel or ready at a vault for FOB with one phone call.
It is not unusual in terms of size by any stretch. The deals there are spoken of in "tonnes" and $100 million minimum.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Jonflyfish:

Hedging
I did not hedge. But, I like the idea of the strategy. I personally don't feel comfortable with futures, plus they are a bit out of my league. However, covered calls or put options would be tolerable. Perhaps an ETF (or leveraged ETF) that pays off in a down market. I would be open to and appreciate any suggestions you might suggest for the next time around. Also, feel free to increase my awareness as to a good time to start hedging.

Premiums
No, I did not fall for the premium rip offs, and while premiums are currently lower I'm still not buying retail in protest. Prices will have to fall a bit more for me to bite on a silver lure.

I prefer to take harsh criticisms and ire invoked stabs and jabs for disagreeing and warning my fellow friends of the contrary.
To me, there is more honor in that. I prefer to be lynched in a forum knowing that I did something to avoid my neighbor from getting ripped off.
Cheers!

I personally have no problem telling you I appreciate your words and Honor your stand. Never easy taking the contrary or minority view and standing by your principles. Especially when the majority consider and tell you, you're wrong.

Sincerely, my take is if you are not seeing both sides of the picture or hearing both sides of a story, you are not getting the whole picture or story. In this day and age, we need to be seeing from every angle that is available to us. I am grateful to be able to see our world thru yours, Neil's, engineer's, Ray's, and every other RC member's eyes. And for this I HONOR YOU ALL

Thank you sir. Your thoughts and views are honorable.
As for hedging, futures can be used but are less efficient than average price asian options. I'll often use different tactics depending on the underlying price cycle within a given strategy. Sometimes collars, 3-ways, 4-ways, and swaps at within a hedge book at various tenors.

Cheers!

[IdahoCopper]

Thank you, JFF. Depending on how things go tonight, I may be in touch with you for further good advice.

[Jonflyfish]

Thank you, JFF. Depending on how things go tonight, I may be in touch with you for further good advice.

Thanks friend. Unfortunately, I am restricted from offering you any specific advice.
Cheers!

[shinnosuke]

Thank you, JFF. Depending on how things go tonight, I may be in touch with you for further good advice.

Good luck with the Powerball and don't forget your friends after you win.

[Jonflyfish]

Thank you, JFF. Depending on how things go tonight, I may be in touch with you for further good advice.

Good luck with the Powerball and don't forget your friends after you win.

Lottery = Voluntary tax
In the end, everyone gets what they want in the markets.
Cheers!

[scyther]

Or it could be that when the price drops, they sell out (or start running low), and it takes a while to get new inventory in. When the price drops, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell. And there might not be enough silver in one ounce/ten ounce form available to meet demand. I think it says on Provident Metals that they had 100,000 new rounds made to meet demand. That takes a little while to do.

And even if you want to say the dealers are all conspiring to "extort" us by charging the market price, how can you fault us for buying (I didn't, by the way- haven't since the day before the fall) when we didn't have a cheaper alternative for physical short of taking delivery of a 5,000 ounce contract, and the price might have come up again before premiums went down? Were we supposed to miss the opportunity to buy at multi-year lows to protest high premiums?

Unfortunately, you are misquoting me and twisting what I said into something else. I said that SOME dealers, not "All" as you misrepresented, were extorting in the market. When the basis spreads explode to $7-11 spread over spot for an ASE I can't imagine anyone would not see that fungible ASE priced in an illiquid shop at the far end of the extortion basis spike that was fully correlated to the inverse price movement in spot, to not be anything else but steering the un-knowledgeable buyer into extortion. You also suggested that "when prices drop, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell". I disagree. Some were buying and some were selling. No evidence to suggest any bias. There are plenty of alternatives to taking delivery of 5,000 oz at COMEX. If you were buying in that range you would know.

Cheers!

Who wasn't extorting? Where could you buy silver in small sizes without increased premiums?

And even if they do charge $11 over spot, that still isn't extortion. They don't want to sell at a loss. So what? Neither do I. I'm certainly not selling my stack at these prices. But if someone offered me $33 for an ASE right now, I'd probably sell it for that price. That's not extortion, that's a voluntary transaction. Here's the definition of extortion-

To wrest from an unwilling person by physical force, menace, duress, torture, or any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity; to wrench away (from); to tear away; to wring (from); to exact; as, to extort contributions from the vanquished; to extort confessions of guilt; to extort a promise; to extort payment of a debt.

What of that is entailed in asking a high price for an ASE?

[scyther]

COMEX acceptance bars are 1000 oz each. You can buy them individually from many sources. The charge is Spot to spot + negligible depending on the volume.

Cheers!

Good, so we only have to buy 1000 ounces at a time, and pay a slight premium. That's still more than most of us can afford.

[Jonflyfish]

Or it could be that when the price drops, they sell out (or start running low), and it takes a while to get new inventory in. When the price drops, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell. And there might not be enough silver in one ounce/ten ounce form available to meet demand. I think it says on Provident Metals that they had 100,000 new rounds made to meet demand. That takes a little while to do.

And even if you want to say the dealers are all conspiring to "extort" us by charging the market price, how can you fault us for buying (I didn't, by the way- haven't since the day before the fall) when we didn't have a cheaper alternative for physical short of taking delivery of a 5,000 ounce contract, and the price might have come up again before premiums went down? Were we supposed to miss the opportunity to buy at multi-year lows to protest high premiums?

Unfortunately, you are misquoting me and twisting what I said into something else. I said that SOME dealers, not "All" as you misrepresented, were extorting in the market. When the basis spreads explode to $7-11 spread over spot for an ASE I can't imagine anyone would not see that fungible ASE priced in an illiquid shop at the far end of the extortion basis spike that was fully correlated to the inverse price movement in spot, to not be anything else but steering the un-knowledgeable buyer into extortion. You also suggested that "when prices drop, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell". I disagree. Some were buying and some were selling. No evidence to suggest any bias. There are plenty of alternatives to taking delivery of 5,000 oz at COMEX. If you were buying in that range you would know.

Cheers!

Who wasn't extorting? Where could you buy silver in small sizes without increased premiums?

And even if they do charge $11 over spot, that still isn't extortion. They don't want to sell at a loss. So what? Neither do I. I'm certainly not selling my stack at these prices. But if someone offered me $33 for an ASE right now, I'd probably sell it for that price. That's not extortion, that's a voluntary transaction. Here's the definition of extortion-

To wrest from an unwilling person by physical force, menace, duress, torture, or any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity; to wrench away (from); to tear away; to wring (from); to exact; as, to extort contributions from the vanquished; to extort confessions of guilt; to extort a promise; to extort payment of a debt.

What of that is entailed in asking a high price for an ASE?

"any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity;"
Price gouging is unethical and uncouth- period. To do it because you can is despicable. Do you think it is good business to offer spot +$2/gallon for fuel because you just happen to be the only gas station within 50 miles of the nearest set of pumps which are at spot + 20 cents?

Business don't necessarily want to sell inventory at a loss in a declining market. I think that's a given. However, in a liquid commodity market, they are price takers and participators, but not price setters. The small time sneaky unprofessional "Sell your gold here" guy loves to see the widow walk in the door.

When you can buy at spot +$3 for retail coins and the same coins at some bucket shop are listed at spot +$11 in a declining market, you can't tell who's gouging who? You know what they say- If you don't know who the patsy in the room is....

Cheers!

[natsb88]

Here's the definition of extortion-

To wrest from an unwilling person by physical force, menace, duress, torture, or any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity; to wrench away (from); to tear away; to wring (from); to exact; as, to extort contributions from the vanquished; to extort confessions of guilt; to extort a promise; to extort payment of a debt.

What of that is entailed in asking a high price for an ASE?

None of it. Some people get so caught up in the paper markets, managing accounts where our combined hoards here at Realcent would be nothing more than a rounding error, that they forget that there are other types of markets out there. Markets for real transactions of physical goods, markets and products that can't necessarily be bought and sold from a comfy office chair on Wall Street. Markets that have tens of thousands of small players, each operating independently with their own goals, instead of just a handful of huge players, often sharing or pooling resources to influence the market. Markets that involve tangible products, and manufacturing, are subject to the laws of time and physics, and can't be expanded and contracted on a whim by changing some numbers on a contract or rules at an exchange. When these markets, retail physical markets, influenced less by corporatism and bets on futures and more by instantaneous supply and demand, show signs of departing from the paper market, even just temporarily, those Wall-Street-is-the-be-all-end-all-of-prices-for-everything guys start to panic.

Surely the paper market can't be wrong. The market makers, companies like JP Morgan, those guys are on the up-and-up. That must mean the retail physical dealers are the problem. How DARE they deviate from the paper prices set by the Wall Street gods? Those slimy physical companies are out to stiff their customers, because clearly they don't depend on repeat business. Those mom-and-pop shops are price gouging, because silver is a basic necessity that people are obligated to buy, and there are no competitors they could go to if they don't like their price. Markets where the price is set then and there, by a buyer with cash in hand and a seller with a physical product...what an EVIL idea. Those sellers are extortionists and those buyers are idiots. Don't you know that prices are set by people much higher up in the food chain? Small business owners and end customers shouldn't have any say in prices, a free market can only be run properly by big corporations with special government connections and by people with lots and lots of money.

There is nothing more frightening and frustrating to someone who lives in a paper world than seeing the physical price of a commodity depart from the paper price. That defies everything they KNOW about markets. There's a feeling of complete loss of control. What chart can you use to determine the future premium of an ASE? What index can you use to hedge against the rise or fall of retail physical silver premiums? How can you figure out how quickly the mints can respond to increased demand and how many people will be waiting in line and for how long and how much do they want to buy and what price are they willing to pay? Is it panic buying? Are higher premiums the new norm? Will they go back down? When? In the physical market we're talking about people and personal decisions, and those aren't always predictable. That type of uncertainty can make paper traders' heads explode, so naturally any indication that it could be happening will bring out harsh criticisms from those who need the paper market to maintain dominance.

[Jonflyfish]

COMEX acceptance bars are 1000 oz each. You can buy them individually from many sources. The charge is Spot to spot + negligible depending on the volume.

Cheers!

Good, so we only have to buy 1000 ounces at a time, and pay a slight premium. That's still more than most of us can afford.

You asked about COMEX bars, no?
To your other point, retail isn't wholesale isn't institutional.
If you buy 20 gallons of fuel at the refinery rack to fill your car, you won't pay the same price as lifting 1,500,000 gallons.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Here's the definition of extortion-

To wrest from an unwilling person by physical force, menace, duress, torture, or any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity; to wrench away (from); to tear away; to wring (from); to exact; as, to extort contributions from the vanquished; to extort confessions of guilt; to extort a promise; to extort payment of a debt.

What of that is entailed in asking a high price for an ASE?

None of it. Some people get so caught up in the paper markets, managing accounts where our combined hoards here at Realcent would be nothing more than a rounding error, that they forget that there are other types of markets out there. Markets for real transactions of physical goods, markets and products that can't necessarily be bought and sold from a comfy office chair on Wall Street. Markets that have tens of thousands of small players, each operating independently with their own goals, instead of just a handful of huge players, often sharing or pooling resources to influence the market. Markets that involve tangible products, and manufacturing, are subject to the laws of time and physics, and can't be expanded and contracted on a whim by changing some numbers on a contract or rules at an exchange. When these markets, retail physical markets, influenced less by corporatism and bets on futures and more by instantaneous supply and demand, show signs of departing from the paper market, even just temporarily, those Wall-Street-is-the-be-all-end-all-of-prices-for-everything guys start to panic.

Surely the paper market can't be wrong. The market makers, companies like JP Morgan, those guys are on the up-and-up. That must mean the retail physical dealers are the problem. How DARE they deviate from the paper prices set by the Wall Street gods? Those slimy physical companies are out to stiff their customers, because clearly they don't depend on repeat business. Those mom-and-pop shops are price gouging, because silver is a basic necessity that people are obligated to buy, and there are no competitors they could go to if they don't like their price. Markets where the price is set then and there, by a buyer with cash in hand and a seller with a physical product...what an EVIL idea. Those sellers are extortionists and those buyers are idiots. Don't you know that prices are set by people much higher up in the food chain? Small business owners and end customers shouldn't have any say in prices, a free market can only be run properly by big corporations with special government connections and by people with lots and lots of money.

There is nothing more frightening and frustrating to someone who lives in a paper world than seeing the physical price of a commodity depart from the paper price. That defies everything they KNOW about markets. There's a feeling of complete loss of control. What chart can you use to determine the future premium of an ASE? What index can you use to hedge against the rise or fall of retail physical silver premiums? How can you figure out how quickly the mints can respond to increased demand and how many people will be waiting in line and for how long and how much do they want to buy and what price are they willing to pay? Is it panic buying? Are higher premiums the new norm? Will they go back down? When? In the physical market we're talking about people and personal decisions, and those aren't always predictable. That type of uncertainty can make paper traders' heads explode, so naturally any indication that it could be happening will bring out harsh criticisms from those who need the paper market to maintain dominance.

Cute narrative with obvious undertones. However, the spot market IS a physical market. And, surprise, the wire houses trade in physicals daily with mind boggling size. What I've been and will continue to be a critic of, are the small bucket shop dealers who price gouge during declining markets. When one cheeky dealer offers spot +$3 then switches to Spot +$11 in a declining market, sells to some poor chap then the poor chap decides he needs the cash and is then offered spot a few weeks later when the spot price was the same as it was when he paid spot +$11 and the dealer now sells at spot +$3, it smells like skunk. When asking the unscrupulous dealer how he prices his metal, the answer is COMEX (Plus extortion premiums when he needs to price away from the market in order to have some poor fool pay the basis loss)....

Cheers!

[scyther]

COMEX acceptance bars are 1000 oz each. You can buy them individually from many sources. The charge is Spot to spot + negligible depending on the volume.

Cheers!

Good, so we only have to buy 1000 ounces at a time, and pay a slight premium. That's still more than most of us can afford.

You asked about COMEX bars, no?
To your other point, retail isn't wholesale isn't institutional.
If you buy 20 gallons of fuel at the refinery rack to fill your car, you won't pay the same price as lifting 1,500,000 gallons.

Cheers!

I did ask about COMEX bars and you answered. Thanks. While buying just one 1000 ounce bar is much more feasible than taking delivery of an entire 5000 ounce contract, it still isn't an option for most of us.

I also asked about retail and you told me "retail isn't wholesale"... which is kind of my point, isn't it? Just because you can still get low premium silver wholesale doesn't mean charging a premium in retail is extortion.

[Thogey]

JFF agitates you guys so much. Why?

I think his posts are very objective. He just passes on what is happening.

But I do think a premium on a 1oz coin is not out of line.

Someone has to do the work to make that coin, that work has value that is built in.

You would not expect to buy a functioning car at steel spot price. Coins are a functioning item. I've traded thousands of dollars worth or silver, just on this forum for products.

I paid for my wood pile with ASE's. That would be hard to do If I had to scrape a few ounces off my 1000 oz bar.

[scyther]

"any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity;"
Price gouging is unethical and uncouth- period. To do it because you can is despicable. Do you think it is good business to offer spot +$2/gallon for fuel because you just happen to be the only gas station within 50 miles of the nearest set of pumps which are at spot + 20 cents?

Business don't necessarily want to sell inventory at a loss in a declining market. I think that's a given. However, in a liquid commodity market, they are price takers and participators, but not price setters. The small time sneaky unprofessional "Sell your gold here" guy loves to see the widow walk in the door.

When you can buy at spot +$3 for retail coins and the same coins at some bucket shop are listed at spot +$11 in a declining market, you can't tell who's gouging who? You know what they say- If you don't know who the patsy in the room is....

Cheers!

If we were talking about a basic necessity/semi-necessity like fuel I might agree, although it could be argued that price gouging is actually economically beneficial. Silver isn't a basic necessity. It's a financial instrument, more or less. I fail to see how shops are obliged to sell at the market rate (or rather the wholesale market rate, which clearly isn't the market rate for small physical silver, since no one's selling at that price) all the time just because they usually do. Another reason it's not like fuel is that you can easily order from anywhere in the country online. Provident, APMEX, Tulving- not to mention Ebay, and a lot of larger coin shops sell online as well. There's no one 50 miles away selling at a normal price. There's no geographical impediment to uniform pricing. When everyone in the country is refusing to sell at the wholesale price, that isn't price gouging, it's the market.

Yeah, we all love to hate We Buy Gold people who pay 10% of spot to elderly widows or whatever, but is that what's happening here? I believe most people who buy silver know the spot price. If they don't they should. It's not that hard to check. They know they're being charged over spot, and that they don't have any better alternatives, other than maybe waiting for premiums to come down.

[scyther]

JFF agitates you guys so much. Why?

I think his posts are very objective. He just passes on what is happening.

But I do think a premium on a 1oz coin is not out of line.

Someone has to do the work to make that coin, that work has value that is built in.

You would not expect to buy a functioning car at steel spot price. Coins are a functioning item. I've traded thousands of dollars worth or silver, just on this forum for products.

I paid for my wood pile with ASE's. That would be hard to do If I had to scrap a few ounces off my 1000 oz bar.

I agree. I also usually find him objective. He says what the price is, and where he thinks it's going based on technical analysis, regardless of "funny-mentals". Nothing wrong with that. But this isn't objective. It's his opinion about ethics, and the reason it may annoy some people so much is that they may be the "extortionists" he is criticizing.

[Jonflyfish]

"any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity;"
Price gouging is unethical and uncouth- period. To do it because you can is despicable. Do you think it is good business to offer spot +$2/gallon for fuel because you just happen to be the only gas station within 50 miles of the nearest set of pumps which are at spot + 20 cents?

Business don't necessarily want to sell inventory at a loss in a declining market. I think that's a given. However, in a liquid commodity market, they are price takers and participators, but not price setters. The small time sneaky unprofessional "Sell your gold here" guy loves to see the widow walk in the door.

When you can buy at spot +$3 for retail coins and the same coins at some bucket shop are listed at spot +$11 in a declining market, you can't tell who's gouging who? You know what they say- If you don't know who the patsy in the room is....

Cheers!

If we were talking about a basic necessity/semi-necessity like fuel I might agree, although it could be argued that price gouging is actually economically beneficial. Silver isn't a basic necessity. It's a financial instrument, more or less. I fail to see how shops are obliged to sell at the market rate (or rather the wholesale market rate, which clearly isn't the market rate for small physical silver, since no one's selling at that price) all the time just because they usually do. Another reason it's not like fuel is that you can easily order from anywhere in the country online. Provident, APMEX, Tulving- not to mention Ebay, and a lot of larger coin shops sell online as well. There's no one 50 miles away selling at a normal price. There's no geographical impediment to uniform pricing. When everyone in the country is refusing to sell at the wholesale price, that isn't price gouging, it's the market.

Yeah, we all love to hate We Buy Gold people who pay 10% of spot to elderly widows or whatever, but is that what's happening here? I believe most people who buy silver know the spot price. If they don't they should. It's not that hard to check. They know they're being charged over spot, and that they don't have any better alternatives, other than maybe waiting for premiums to come down.

Your points align with so many assumptions and exceptions in order to make your point. I am neutral and have no conflict of interest. I am independent. For some, silver is a basic necessity. It is far more of an industrial metal than as a financial instrument. Why should shops be obliged to sell a fungible commodity at the price where discovered in a liquid pool? Really? I agree when everyone is selling at the same price IT IS the market! Exactly my point. However, when you see fragmented, end of distribution chain small retail shops with price premiums ranging between $3-11+, when the normal premiums for those SAME shops is closer to <= $3 that IS NOT the market. End user fever price manipulation by unethical unscrupulous bucket shops in the first degree. One un-headged small timer doesn't want to lose in a declining market so his premiums bloat so someone else can cover his MtM losses for him. The next supply source sees it and bloats their premiums to gouge and rake in the premium etc etc. What they paid folks who walked in to sell their coins during all of this was an even greater transgression. Then, when the market is more stable they go back out and buy more supply and begin the journey back to their normal premiums. It is what it is. I just hope some folks could understand that when it was taking place and I was here taking mortar rounds for pointing it out.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

JFF agitates you guys so much. Why?

I think his posts are very objective. He just passes on what is happening.

But I do think a premium on a 1oz coin is not out of line.

Someone has to do the work to make that coin, that work has value that is built in.

You would not expect to buy a functioning car at steel spot price. Coins are a functioning item. I've traded thousands of dollars worth or silver, just on this forum for products.

I paid for my wood pile with ASE's. That would be hard to do If I had to scrap a few ounces off my 1000 oz bar.

I agree. I also usually find him objective. He says what the price is, and where he thinks it's going based on technical analysis, regardless of "funny-mentals". Nothing wrong with that. But this isn't objective. It's his opinion about ethics, and the reason it may annoy some people so much is that they may be the "extortionists" he is criticizing.

That suggests that there are some folks here who may have participated in the unscrupulous price gouging activity (I didn't say anyone here did). But, if they did or didn't, if they are not independent, they have a natural conflict of interest, so their defense can't be viewed as unbiased.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

JFF agitates you guys so much. Why?

I think his posts are very objective. He just passes on what is happening.

But I do think a premium on a 1oz coin is not out of line.

Someone has to do the work to make that coin, that work has value that is built in.

You would not expect to buy a functioning car at steel spot price. Coins are a functioning item. I've traded thousands of dollars worth or silver, just on this forum for products.

I paid for my wood pile with ASE's. That would be hard to do If I had to scrape a few ounces off my 1000 oz bar.

Thanks friend. I do recognize and realize that there is a certain premium in the efforts for stamping a coin.
When you see that premium with SOME dealers depart and explode by several hundred percent in a declining market then collapse back to the reasonable and typical rate when the market slows down, one might want to give pause and wonder what happened. Especially if they bought a coin(s) at the extremely inflated price and now wonder why, when the spot price is the same as it was then, they paid so much more than what they could acquire it for today and how they could ever break even with such price gouging. If they didn't feel like they were taken advantage of, I don't know who would.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

You also suggested that "when prices drop, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell". I disagree. Some were buying and some were selling. No evidence to suggest any bias.

The premiums and associated delays ARE the evidence. Blinding yourself to those data in order to prove your point that physical dealers are extortionists is both disingenuous and a misuse of the word extortion.