Nickel sorting

[68Camaro]

Largest use of nickel is in stainless steel, roughly 8% content.

[ZenOps]

I always thought of nickel to silver in the sense that they were at parity in the 1940's (both around 35 cents per ounce)

You could always take the perspective that someone decided that silver had more industrial uses, and began removing it from circulation. Nickel was actually the superior monetary metal, and was left in circulation.

Nickel was left in the coinage even as low as milligram plating (US dimes and quarters) as it was found to be a psychologically better metal for maintaining confidence in the US dollar until 2013. Canadian $2 coins maintain 0.2 grams of nickel plating to maintain the illusion of confidence.

For every one nickel the US produces, they print three $100 bills every year.

Hows is that for a conspiracy theory

[ZenOps]

Largest use of nickel is in stainless steel, roughly 8% content.

Yes, but not all stainless steel uses nickel. Chrome and molybdenum, and any other number of metals can be used as well.

The highest quality warships will use 2% to 5% nickel because of its extra hardness, but any ship made nowadays will be made of straight iron, with a 300 pound zinc anchor weight that reduces rust (its just way cheaper and works)

[68Camaro]

Largest use of nickel is in stainless steel, roughly 8% content.

Yes, but not all stainless steel uses nickel. Chrome and molybdenum, and any other number of metals can be used as well.

The highest quality warships will use 2% to 5% nickel because of its extra hardness, but any ship made nowadays will be made of straight iron, with a 300 pound zinc anchor weight that reduces rust (its just way cheaper and works)

Most stainless relies on nickel. The 4xx ferritic series does not, but the austenitic 2xx and 3xx series require it to retain the microstructure over the entire temperature range, and the while the martensitic series uses less nickel, the better precipitation hardening PH alloys of the martensitic series like 17-4PH and 15-5PH rely on nickel. Bottom line is that most of the best stainless alloys require, and use, nickel - in amounts from 4% to 10%. By volume >85% of stainless requires nickel.

Ships use high strength low alloy HSLA steel, not iron.

[hobo finds]

Largest use of nickel is in stainless steel, roughly 8% content.

Yes, but not all stainless steel uses nickel. Chrome and molybdenum, and any other number of metals can be used as well.

The highest quality warships will use 2% to 5% nickel because of its extra hardness, but any ship made nowadays will be made of straight iron, with a 300 pound zinc anchor weight that reduces rust (its just way cheaper and works)

Most stainless relies on nickel. The 4xx ferritic series does not, but the austenitic 2xx and 3xx series require it to retain the microstructure over the entire temperature range, and the while the martensitic series uses less nickel, the better precipitation hardening PH alloys of the martensitic series like 17-4PH and 15-5PH rely on nickel. Bottom line is that most of the best stainless alloys require, and use, nickel - in amounts from 4% to 10%. By volume >85% of stainless requires nickel.

Ships use high strength low alloy HSLA steel, not iron.

Some info here... http://www.advanced-stainless.com/produ ... sition.htm

[ZenOps]

Again. It depends on country.

In the US, you have access to Canadian nickel - so yes you are much more likely to use adequate levels of nickel for everything. But I have absolutely no doubt that in many countries, the ships are just made with inches of mostly iron steel, with maybe a 3 millimeter plating of 4% nickel composite shell.

Just like the coinage in Canada nowadays, just rust resistant on the very outside coating - but cheap iron in the middle.

Its like trying to get tin canned food made with actual electoplated tin cans instead of the plastic-whatever they use over the welds nowadays. Real plated tin cans last much longer than plastic coated ones.

[68Camaro]

Not to fuss over terminology but iron isn't steel and food cans haven't been made of tin in a century.

[hobo finds]

Not to fuss over terminology but iron isn't steel and food cans haven't been made of tin in a century.

Alot of places still call tin (not the element) iron or steel. A pound of "tin" is worth alot more than a pound of iron / steel!

[68Camaro]

I'm not trying to be argumentative zenops. You've long made excellent points about the importance and relative rarity of nickel. In fact your discussions (with others) encouraged me to diversify somewhat into a bit of bullion nickel. So I've got several hundred pounds of it now.

I just think your message would be be more portable if you were more precise about some of your language.

[ZenOps]

Not to fuss over terminology but iron isn't steel and food cans haven't been made of tin in a century.

Better places still electroplate tin over iron. Food grade tin in ingots is regularily sold.

[ZenOps]

I'm not trying to be argumentative zenops. You've long made excellent points about the importance and relative rarity of nickel. In fact your discussions (with others) encouraged me to diversify somewhat into a bit of bullion nickel. So I've got several hundred pounds of it now.

I just think your message would be be more portable if you were more precise about some of your language.

I know, its hard to be precise. When I say nickel nickels, people don't know what I mean when compared to cupronickel nickels or iron nickels.

The dollar upside potential of nickel is astounding considering history. The only thing I see holding it back, is that the US still makes three nickels for every US citizen each year (at the expense of other mints around the world that are rapidly melting their stocks to fill the need) 4.5 grams of nickel per US citizen per year is putting an incredible strain on the rest of us. 20 pounds of oil every day? Not a problem.

The US maintains the illusion of a $100 bill that is backed by pennies and nickels, and is doing it very effectively.

[68Camaro]

Not to fuss over terminology but iron isn't steel and food cans haven't been made of tin in a century.

Better places still electroplate tin over iron. Food grade tin in ingots is regularily sold.

Yep, steel needs corrosion resistance but it turns out zinc isn't acceptable for food-grade products because the ions can be toxic. The brightness of the cans is indeed a tin plate on the steel, which provides a measure of corrosion resistance.

[dannan14]

Nickel was left in the coinage even as low as milligram plating (US dimes and quarters) as it was found to be a psychologically better metal for maintaining confidence in the US dollar until 2013.

i'm missing something here. US dimes and quarters haven't changed composition, right? Even a dime has much more nickel than 1 mg...it's more like 188mg.

[68Camaro]

Nickel was left in the coinage even as low as milligram plating (US dimes and quarters) as it was found to be a psychologically better metal for maintaining confidence in the US dollar until 2013.

i'm missing something here. US dimes and quarters haven't changed composition, right? Even a dime has much more nickel than 1 mg...it's more like 188mg.

The clad coin are CuNi layered on Cu core, resulting in 8.33% Ni overall average. You nailed the Ni mass in a dime, 188 mg.

[scyther]

I could be wrong, but isn't there a lot more nickel in the ground than silver? The reason there aren't a lot of nickel coins and bullion per person is that people don't think of nickel as a precious metal and stack it. If for some reason everyone wanted to stack nickel, more bullion would be produced. It's just not as rare as silver, and therefore I don't think it can be priced like like silver except those rare times when silver is s cheap for whatever reason, and nickel is expensive because of war.

Also, I really don't think the reason they plate coins in nickel and copper is to maintain the illusion that the currency is backed by copper and nickel. Nickel has never really been a monetary metal like gold and silver (sure, they've been using it in coins for 150 years, but it was never the basis for the currency, it was more of a token). Copper was long ago, but that time is gone. The reason they plate coins in nickel and copper isn't so that people think "this coin is made of nickel, the currency surely has value!", it's to prevent corrosion and so the coins still look the way they used to. Now I suppose it also serves the purpose of covering up the fact that the coins are now too worthless at face value to be made of anything other than cheap iron and zinc, but that's not really the same thing. I think once real precious metals (gold and silver) left the coinage, it stopped really mattering what they were made of in the minds of most people. In fact the reason they started using nickel in quarters and dimes at all was to make it look like silver.

[galenrog]

68camero asked "Stupid question that has probably been addressed a zillion times, but what's the market for pre-60 Jeffersons?"

I've answered this a few times, but I do not mind answering it again. The market for common Jeffs', regardless of date varies from one town to the next. I feel this has more to do with how many new collectors there are. Here in western Oregon the market is limited because I am NOT near Portland. When I started sorting Jeffs', I could easily find buyers willing to pay $4 per roll for 1950-1959 and $6 per roll for 1938-1949 with no war nicks. Today it is difficult to get $3 for a roll for 1950's and $4 for the 1940's. I do, however, have a long list of dates to look for from several collectors, plus there are errors that I still find such as off center, clipped planchet, and lamination that are still in demand locally, but are not significant enough to put on feebay.

I suppose if I put together a full box of older Jeffs' together I would be able to get enough from feebay to make a little, but that would take a while.

[scyther]

I'm glad to hear that. Those prices aren't great, but better than what I was expecting. I don't think I'd go to the trouble of shipping for that meager profit, but if my LCS offered 2x for 38-49 and 1.5x for 50-59, I'd probably sell most of what I had (especially 39-49).

[galenrog]

My LCS will not pay the prices you are suggesting, Scyther. They will buy graded Jeffs and occasionally ungraded Jeffs that may grade high. Otherwise they do not deal much with older Jeffs. The best way to sell and trade is to constantly update your CL ads and keep an ear out with all nearby clubs and collectors. With shipping costs for small lots being beyond reason, the locals are the best bet for small profit here and there.

[68Camaro]

Appreciate the response and update. There is a positive message, but unfortunately it's not enough for me to justify hanging on to 40s and 50s any longer, when I can convert those to .999 nickel or silver. I'll keep some key dates and mints, the better quality coins, the warnicks (obviously) and 1930s - otherwise the common coins of average or less quality are going back to the wild and being used to buy other things.

[Morsecode]

Ditto. Ditched all of mine a while back. I hung onto a few better dates...the rest went through the lobby counter.

[scyther]

Looking at this list again, I'm surprised that 42-D is so far down. I definitely get more 49-S, 48-S, and 46-S than 42-D. Maybe a lot were pulled by people who thought they were war nickels?

[hobo finds]

2013 numbers to add to the list

2013 P 607,440,000
2013 D 615,600,000

[SilverDragon72]

Went to the bank today and picked up.....guess what.....drum roll please......NICKELS!

It's been a while since I've sorted any, so I figured what the hell.

[cooyon]

Went to the bank today and picked up.....guess what.....drum roll please......NICKELS!

It's been a while since I've sorted any, so I figured what the hell.

Hope you get lucky...my bank stopped getting boxes for me unless I open a "business" account (which probably involves paying higher monthly "service fees").

[ZenOps]

One of the reasons that I think the US never made nickel into a monetary metal back before 1900, is that they didn't own (and still do not own on local soil) a nickel mine of significance. It would be more or less insane to create a monetary system on a metal that you had to import and could not control.

200 years ago the burning of the White House by Canada kind of tells you what sort of friends we were back then. Canada could have and still can at any time refuse to sell anything to the US (nickel, oil, etc) So even if the US wanted to use nickel (arguably, a superior monetary metal as seen from the perspective of a Canadain) as their monetary system, it would not have been possible.

The US had a very large silver mine however (Comstock lode)

It just makes sense. Since Canada owns a nickel mine (the one big one in north america) we made our dollars out of it all the way until 2012. In many ways, nickel is money is Canada and silver not so much, because we don't really have a big silver mine like Comstock (but we do have adequate gold in the ground)

However, you could absolutely say, that after 1965 the US dollar is cupronickel (and later a little bit of zinc). Countries like Japan, aluminum.

Has nickel always been superior to silver as a monetary metal? I can see why some would think so. Think of this logic: In a Canadian coin store, a dealer will have no problem selling you an ounce of pure silver, for eleven 8-gram cupro-nickel/nickel toonies. In a US coin store, a pure Canadian nickel can sometimes be sold for 4 cents (paid in fiat bill form if enough of them)