Prepping For the Silver Shortage

[50centsaver]

I've read some people recommend saving all coins- incl zinc pennies, clad dimes/quarters/halves as they will have some worth as compared to paper. Or would it be better to turn them into ie silver dimes?
What about saving crushed aluminum cans if one has the room to store them? Rather than taking them in now to get a meager $.60 lb, is there logic in saving them until the price of aluminum goes way up?

From what I've learned here on realcent over the past few years I save copper pennies, nickels, silver and gold. I don't have alot but have turned into a metals person- metal is money. Here's my blog that no one in my family reads: Metal Matters http://yourmetalmatters.blogspot.com/

And one thing I haven't quite grasped yet is: yeah, $800 silver $20,000 gold great, except $800 of worthless FRN, $20,000 of worthless paper? Big whoop. I realize my metals are a store of value, great for barter, but we're all waiting for our metals to zoom to astronomical numbers of worthless paper?

Me- not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to this stuff, but trying to learn.

Thank-you all for your wisdom, interest in metals, and taking the time to educate people.

[68Camaro]

You'll hear many different opinions, and you should take no one's word at face value. Listen, but dig yourself, then decide who to believe on what, for good reason.

That said... (and this next has been said many times here by myself and others)

In general, no one should be buying PMs with the idea of getting rich. PMs are not an investment; investment is putting assets into things that build capital. Holding silver and gold doesn't build capital. In a stable world it's far better to only hold a modest amount of PMs as a safety net and let most of your wealth (gold and silver) go to others who will build capital for you. (Buy a farm, build a mill, acquire rental property, create a business, etc.) But we're not in a stable world now, are we?

Acquiring PMs is primarily wealth preservation, and the objective of wealth preservation is ensuring that you retain your greatest means of building capital through a time of crisis. You hold the PM until you get to the other side of the crisis, then when things settle down (years, if not decades) you gradually start testing the waters and releasing it in measured amounts to re-start capital building. (Of course the PMs are also available for life-sustainment in emergency, but you should be preparing for emergency separately and in addition; trading PMs for food, shelter, safety during the crisis should be your method of last resort.)

There is a chance, when PMs are undervalued (as many of us believe they are at the moment), to potentially gain from the tranditional buy low, sell high trading philosophy. Some of us may benefit from that in part. Some of us (not myself) may be truly gifted at doing this. But that is not most of us, and most of us should be planning on buying and holding PMs to get to the side of the pending crisis.

If PMs were fairly valued now, but in 10 years it takes $10,000 USD to buy a loaf of bread (let's say 2000x what it would cost for a $5 loaf today) then your ounce of silver might be worth $40,000 USD. If you do the math, you did NOT come out ahead - your $20 silver coin can still only buy 4 loaves of bread, but you did break even; you retained what you held, unlike your neighbor, whose $40,000 IRA can now buy only 4 loaves of bread. (If your ounce of silver becomes worth $50,000 or $100,000, then you DID come out ahead - be thankful for that, just don't count on it.)

For that crisis is coming, whether this year, next year, 5 years, or 20 years. The ponzi scheme is being widely supported, but the system is unstable and increasing in instabilty by the day. Unstable systems can be actively controlled for a time, but when the instability increases beyond the ability of the controller it will all come crashing down.

As far as what to save, save the things that will hold their value best, and include in that a mix of things, including things that are portable (PMs) as well as things that are life-sustaining (long-term food, water, ammo, weapons, gear, knowledge and experience). That can include copper in several forms (copper wire, for example). But you'll want to retain balance. Why save aluminum cans when you can sell them and buy silver, which is easier to save and far more portable and transferrable. Silver and gold are the very definition of true money (another subject), and even copper has traditionally been considered money at the lowest level (which is the topic that started this site). Aluminum, while it has value, is a commodity. Paper has value as well, but it's easily destroyed, not easily transferrable, and you have to have a warehouse full of it. So focus on things that can't easily be destroyed, are portable, transferrable, divisible, respected, and retain value.

[50centsaver]

Thanks for your very intelligent reply.

"Why save aluminum cans when you can sell them and buy silver, which is easier to save and far more portable and transferrable."

Because they're free, and I hardly get anything for them now re the work of finding them, crushing/loading them/redeeming them. Why not wait until they go up in value. Who knows, maybe the price of alum will go way up and silver will lag or dip temporarily. To use the can money to buy silver would be a wise choice in that scenario.
I would redeem them now if I lived in CA or OR. It's no problem for me to store them.

It takes LOTS of them to buy a silver dime in MN. ie It would be a very slow way to buy silver if I only did so using alum cans.

[pennypicker]

You'll hear many different opinions, and you should take no one's word at face value. Listen, but dig yourself, then decide who to believe on what, for good reason.

That said... (and this next has been said many times here by myself and others)

In general, no one should be buying PMs with the idea of getting rich. PMs are not an investment; investment is putting assets into things that build capital. Holding silver and gold doesn't build capital. In a stable world it's far better to only hold a modest amount of PMs as a safety net and let most of your wealth (gold and silver) go to others who will build capital for you. (Buy a farm, build a mill, acquire rental property, create a business, etc.) But we're not in a stable world now, are we?

Acquiring PMs is primarily wealth preservation, and the objective of wealth preservation is ensuring that you retain your greatest means of building capital through a time of crisis. You hold the PM until you get to the other side of the crisis, then when things settle down (years, if not decades) you gradually start testing the waters and releasing it in measured amounts to re-start capital building. (Of course the PMs are also available for life-sustainment in emergency, but you should be preparing for emergency separately and in addition; trading PMs for food, shelter, safety during the crisis should be your method of last resort.)

There is a chance, when PMs are undervalued (as many of us believe they are at the moment), to potentially gain from the tranditional buy low, sell high trading philosophy. Some of us may benefit from that in part. Some of us (not myself) may be truly gifted at doing this. But that is not most of us, and most of us should be planning on buying and holding PMs to get to the side of the pending crisis.

If PMs were fairly valued now, but in 10 years it takes $10,000 USD to buy a loaf of bread (let's say 2000x what it would cost for a $5 loaf today) then your ounce of silver might be worth $40,000 USD. If you do the math, you did NOT come out ahead - your $20 silver coin can still only buy 4 loaves of bread, but you did break even; you retained what you held, unlike your neighbor, whose $40,000 IRA can now buy only 4 loaves of bread. (If your ounce of silver becomes worth $50,000 or $100,000, then you DID come out ahead - be thankful for that, just don't count on it.)

For that crisis is coming, whether this year, next year, 5 years, or 20 years. The ponzi scheme is being widely supported, but the system is unstable and increasing in instabilty by the day. Unstable systems can be actively controlled for a time, but when the instability increases beyond the ability of the controller it will all come crashing down.

As far as what to save, save the things that will hold their value best, and include in that a mix of things, including things that are portable (PMs) as well as things that are life-sustaining (long-term food, water, ammo, weapons, gear, knowledge and experience). That can include copper in several forms (copper wire, for example). But you'll want to retain balance. Why save aluminum cans when you can sell them and buy silver, which is easier to save and far more portable and transferrable. Silver and gold are the very definition of true money (another subject), and even copper has traditionally been considered money at the lowest level (which is the topic that started this site). Aluminum, while it has value, is a commodity. Paper has value as well, but it's easily destroyed, not easily transferrable, and you have to have a warehouse full of it. So focus on things that can't easily be destroyed, are portable, transferrable, divisible, respected, and retain value.

A fantastic and well thought out post! One that should be read by every metal stacker.

[ZenOps]

Deposit the aluminum cans and get copper pennies and nickels. Do not sit on aluminum.

Aluminum is technically a more abundant element on the earth than iron is. Pure aluminum being about $.78 per pound, scrap aluminum around $.60 nowadays. Sure you could squish the cans, but you still could just simply transfer its wealth into fiat, and then into a 4.54 gram CDN nickel (that is in perfect coinage form as money and currency) that has been as high as $23 per pound.

Lucky people in the US might even have a coinshop that sells CDN nickels for .8 face (A four cent nickel)

If you want to keep a can for the design on it that is different, but for the aluminum? No.

[68Camaro]

I mentioned silver of course, and copper. We know zenops is a big proponent of nickel, and for good reason. It makes sense to include nickel as one of the main options in ones short list of monetary capable metals. I have a reasonable amount of it myself.

[50centsaver]

"I have a reasonable amount of it myself." CDN or US nickels? Years ago I learned about CDN nickels here- from Frugi and others. Wonder if he's still around?
My job brings me across the US. I was in very N Idaho close to the CDN border so stopped at 2 US banks and cleaned them out of their CDN nickels. They looked at me strange for paying US $ for CDN nickels, about $200 worth.
Was fun looking for the 1981's and before (99% nickel), plus separated the 1982 -1999 (75% copper/25% nickel) from the rest- made 3 bags. Got about 8lbs 99%, about 10 lbs 75/25, and the biggest bag were the newer ones. Now what do I do with them? If we go to Canada from MN I could take the worthless ones back to a CDN bank and get US $, or more nickels to go thru, but I'm wondering if many more Canadians are going thru nickels now... Maybe I should also cash in the 75/25s and get American. Thing is, if I hold on to the 99% who do I sell the them to if/when the price goes up?

[InfleXion]

"I have a reasonable amount of it myself." CDN or US nickels? Years ago I learned about CDN nickels here- from Frugi and others. Wonder if he's still around?
My job brings me across the US. I was in very N Idaho close to the CDN border so stopped at 2 US banks and cleaned them out of their CDN nickels. They looked at me strange for paying US $ for CDN nickels, about $200 worth.
Was fun looking for the 1981's and before (99% nickel), plus separated the 1982 -1999 (75% copper/25% nickel) from the rest- made 3 bags. Got about 8lbs 99%, about 10 lbs 75/25, and the biggest bag were the newer ones. Now what do I do with them? If we go to Canada from MN I could take the worthless ones back to a CDN bank and get US $, or more nickels to go thru, but I'm wondering if many more Canadians are going thru nickels now... Maybe I should also cash in the 75/25s and get American. Thing is, if I hold on to the 99% who do I sell the them to if/when the price goes up?

I love older Canadian pennies and nickels because they are pure metal AND coins, and it's legal to melt them in the US. Worst case scenario you could sell them to a smelter without getting dinged for refinery costs even if nobody is interested them for being coins.

[68Camaro]

"I have a reasonable amount of it myself." CDN or US nickels?
...

.999 Ni coin, regardless of source. A fair amount in Canadian nickels (and a much smaller amount of .999 dimes and quarters). But an equal or greater amount is in French francs. (Plus a small smattering of Ni coin from other countries, Netherlands, etc. - that I've just picked up along the way by accident, and kept.)

The 25% Ni alloy Copper in the US nickel is a recognized useful alloy in its own right and potentially has its own demand, but it will not be short in supply compared to .999 Nickel. If you want some of the 75/25 at this point you can still just go into your favorite US bank and order a box of US nickels and get 22 pounds of it.

The issue you noted for US sorters of CDN nickels is what to do with the dumps. Some US banks will (or used to) take them back at face, but with the CDN$ dropping recently I'm not sure how long that will last, and those that would do that were few anyway. If you're at the border and do business on both sides, then this would be easy. Otherwise not so much. The 75/25 CDN nickels are lighter than the US nickels, so if you're buying them at US face you're losing compared to a US nickel.

[50centsaver]

68 Camaro wrote: " ..French francs...

If you want some of the 75/25 at this point you can still just go into your favorite US bank and order a box of US nickels and get 22 pounds of it."

I take it you've gone to France to get the francs? How else would you've gotten them?

Do you save US nickels for their metal content with the intention of selling them if they go up? I'm guessing no, and I'm guessing you don't save CDN 75/25?

[68Camaro]

Agressive Metal here sells francs from time to time. I have had a US nickel stash in the past but that was when I didn't have enough protection from other options. Not needed any longer by me but its an easy starting point with no downside.

[theo]

68 Camaro wrote: " ..French francs...


I take it you've gone to France to get the francs? How else would you've gotten them?

They can also be found in any junk foriegn coin box at the LCS or flea market. You have to dig for them sometimes but they are there.

[50centsaver]

From now on I will look for francs in coin stores as I travel across the US for my job.

Coin shops buy gold and silver, not .999 nickel. Where would I sell it? Ebay? People on realcent? To mail it would be expensive.

[68Camaro]

From now on I will look for francs in coin stores as I travel across the US for my job.

Coin shops buy gold and silver, not .999 nickel. Where would I sell it? Ebay? People on realcent? To mail it would be expensive.

Not sure what future market will form for it. I haven't shopped to sell but I suspect you can find a scrap yard that will buy it, though RC and other places are no doubt better, as long as we're talking a functioning society. And you can mail 70 pounds in a flat rate box - see all the posts related to shipping cents.

For myself, I'm not making nickel essential - but it's diversification. US copper cents are hard to beat as a base because they will never be worth less than a cent, face value, and the market for copper and it's alloys is larger.

[50centsaver]

I've got two full larger ammo cans (not the ones for nickel rolls- got a few of those too) full of pre 1982s so far, as the pile slowly grows. Last week 15 rolls brought over half in coppers- the best cent score yet- usually it's 1/3 at best or less. That was fun. I've got my coin fan mother saving cents for me too. I can expect a small bag of them each Christmas and birthday. She's funny, she has a friend saving them for her but doesn't tell her why- she doesn't want anyone else saving them so there'd be less for her (me)!

I sure hope the ban on melting cents lifts soon/in my lifetime, otherwsie my kids are going to have some heavy lifting.
It would be enjoyable to make some profit from them. There can't be that many people stacking them. Would be fun to read the joy on this forum.

[SilverDragon72]

68 Camaro wrote: " ..French francs...


I take it you've gone to France to get the francs? How else would you've gotten them?

They can also be found in any junk foriegn coin box at the LCS or flea market. You have to dig for them sometimes but they are there.

The downside of that is most francs that you find in the LCS foreign junk bin cost 20 or 25 cents apiece. That has been my experience in finding them around here. I have a small stash of these, but I don't usually get them unless I find a real bargain. Stick with the .999 Ni Canadian nickels.

[50centsaver]

"most francs that you find in the LCS foreign junk bin cost 20 or 25 cents apiece. That has been my experience in finding them around here. I have a small stash of these, but I don't usually get them unless I find a real bargain."

What's a bargain- $.10 each? I know there's different denonimations too- 1/2 franc, 1, 2, 5, etc. ?

And thanks for Copper Catcher's help re figuring out how to decrease a picture size re my profile.

I have put in much time across the US on my job- 47 states- checking countless rolls of halves. I've shared some of my success stories here.

The story behind the picture:

I was in New Jersey and found a coin in a roll. I'd gotten 6 rolls from a bank. Only saw 1 silver looking edge of the 6 rolls. I'd never seen one of these- looked silver- but wasn't sure- said "Iowa Centennial" on it. Had no idea about it, so took it to a coin shop there and was shocked to hear it was indeed silver, and that the guy would give me $90 for it! Ha! Couldn't believe it. I looked on ebay and that was about the going price for them so collected the $90.

[chester5731]

I was putting a check in the till at work yesterday and found someone put 2-40% half dollars in there. It didn't take me very long to whip out a dollar bill and make the trade.

[baggerman]

I sure hope the ban on melting cents lifts soon/in my lifetime, otherwsie my kids are going to have some heavy lifting.
It would be enjoyable to make some profit from them. There can't be that many people stacking them. Would be fun to read the joy on this forum.

I have sold $1500 face locally for a profit ($500 @ 1.5X and $1000 @ 1.4X) which I put into silver so a profit can be made now if one is diligent.

[TwoAndAHalfCents]

"most francs that you find in the LCS foreign junk bin cost 20 or 25 cents apiece. That has been my experience in finding them around here. I have a small stash of these, but I don't usually get them unless I find a real bargain."

What's a bargain- $.10 each? I know there's different denonimations too- 1/2 franc, 1, 2, 5, etc. ?

Try this site for checking the metal value of the francs:

http://www.currencydebasement.com/high-nickel

[50centsaver]

"have sold $1500 face locally for a profit ($500 @ 1.5X and $1000 @ 1.4X) which I put into silver so a profit can be made now if one is diligent.

That's great/wise way to get silver. I take it you sold it to a penny collector as it is illegal to melt at this time?

When you sell it does the buyer use a rydale to make sure all are copper? Does a ryedale also count the cents? Doesn't it just separate the copper?

And- when those who stack cents saw this post I imagine they are thinking, yes a profit now is good, but holding them for a higher profit will be worth the wait.

[50centsaver]

"If PMs were fairly valued now, but in 10 years it takes $10,000 USD to buy a loaf of bread (let's say 2000x what it would cost for a $5 loaf today) then your ounce of silver might be worth $40,000 USD. If you do the math, you did NOT come out ahead - your $20 silver coin can still only buy 4 loaves of bread, but you did break even; you retained what you held, unlike your neighbor, whose $40,000 IRA can now buy only 4 loaves of bread. (If your ounce of silver becomes worth $50,000 or $100,000, then you DID come out ahead - be thankful for that, just don't count on it.)"

A world like this is hard to imagine. Almost everyone will be up a creek if it gets like this- no fiat to survive- a world gone mad re crime, again to survive. What use will my garden be when people will be stealing the food. Word will get out I have some PM and what, I'll have my wife with a cocked and loaded gun ready at all times at the door? Who will be able to sleep at night? I spose I should study ie what life in Zimbabwe was like when their currency became worthless.

I guess appreciate life as it is right now, not complain a healthy loaf of bread does cost $5, and use a bread machine instead.

[beauanderos]

"If PMs were fairly valued now, but in 10 years it takes $10,000 USD to buy a loaf of bread (let's say 2000x what it would cost for a $5 loaf today) then your ounce of silver might be worth $40,000 USD. If you do the math, you did NOT come out ahead - your $20 silver coin can still only buy 4 loaves of bread, but you did break even; you retained what you held, unlike your neighbor, whose $40,000 IRA can now buy only 4 loaves of bread. (If your ounce of silver becomes worth $50,000 or $100,000, then you DID come out ahead - be thankful for that, just don't count on it.)"

A world like this is hard to imagine. Almost everyone will be up a creek if it gets like this- no fiat to survive- a world gone mad re crime, again to survive. What use will my garden be when people will be stealing the food. Word will get out I have some PM and what, I'll have my wife with a cocked and loaded gun ready at all times at the door? Who will be able to sleep at night? I spose I should study ie what life in Zimbabwe was like when their currency became worthless.

I guess appreciate life as it is right now, not complain a healthy loaf of bread does cost $5, and use a bread machine instead.

there's a guy that writes about Argentina and what they went thru. I think he goes by the name Ferfal, but I could be mistaken. A little internet search should provide the answer. He's written a book, and has posted long blogs about how it was.

[68Camaro]

And as bad as Argentina was, it was an island of chaos supported by a relatively stable world. If the US goes down hard it'll take most of the world with it for a generation.

[reddirtcoins]

And as bad as Argentina was, it was an island of chaos supported by a relatively stable world. If the US goes down hard it'll take most of the world with it for a generation.

I agree..