Leaving America

[johnbrickner]

This is a topic that has been brought up before and I recently came across more information on it.

James Dale Davidson wrote the books Sovereign Individual, Blood in the Streets, The Great Reckoning, and The Plague of the Black Debt. He is also the Founder of the National Taxpayers Union. His recent newsletter includes the following: Thanks to President Obama’s Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) enacted in 2010, which former U.S. diplomat James Satras phrased as “the worst law most Americans have never heard of,” it will henceforth be
practically impossible for you to live or do business in any jurisdiction outside of the United States . . . You might be tempted to suppose that this policy is
targeted to ensnare ultra-wealthy Americans who selfishly calculate that the costs they pay for the U.S. government far exceed what it is worth. Not so . . . It is aimed at you . . . Polling data shows a startling surge in the number of Americans, especially younger Americans, (aged 25 to 34) that are planning to leave the United States. A 2011 survey, conducted by Zogby, found that an astonishing six million young Americans had either left the United States or were already packing their bags and planning to do so. Contrary to the myth that only billionaires could appreciate the logic of expatriating, the survey found that the largest percentage of those considering leaving was making $50,000 per year or less. Is this really a surprise? The median American income earner does not need to read the fine print in the New York Times to realize that life in the United States has become a dead-end for people like him.

I am one of the 6 million. Is it something you would consider?

[theo]

I can understand leaving for a lucrative job opportunity, especially if you are young and having a difficult time finding decent work in the U.S. But for those leaving for the sole reason of avoiding a U.S. collapse I can't quite see the logic, especially if you have limited experience abroad. I know that the idea of escaping all of this madness for a queit little corner of the world where the government is stable, taxes are low and the people kind hearted is very seductive. Panama, Belize and Singapore seem to be at the top of most lists of getaway spots.

However, if the U.S. gets as bad as many of us fear, will there be corner of the globe where this tyranny will not reach? How long will it be before the benign government of your new home gets overthrown by a foriegn-backed fascist group? Then the thugs targeting rich American and European expats will not be far behind.

When times get tough, I prefer the home field advantage.

[justoneguy]

When times get tough, I prefer the home field advantage.

+1

[aloneibreak]

I always enjoy your posts john

you and I think alike on many things

but here in amerika ive still got "most" of my 2nd amendment rights - which means a great deal to me

where else could I run to and still enjoy those freedoms ?

great topic to think about

[Hawkeye]

I was talking to someone about this the other day. I'd love to get out while I can, but where am I going to go? There are places I'd like to visit, but, as much freedom as we've lost, we still have more than most places. But if there is somewhere to make a "last stand" for freedom, I'm interested in knowing where it is. I'm not above picking up and moving.

[johnbrickner]

A lot of good members whom I consider friends here, have had a lot of good things to say about sticking around. I'm giving it 2nd consideration at this time. However, the day may come when I am old enough to no longer give a shat and will find a place to retire where my hard earned will go much further and I can have a place where I can reestablish the farmstead and be fairly independent of the ways of the world but not of the community I choose to stay.

Prior to that, keeping hold of my Rights, or taking a "last stand" for freedom will take a priority behind surviving. And if surviving means taking the lifeboat strategy, then I will be one of the first to leave a sinking ship. It may mean moving to another location here in the states. Regardless, I'm fairly sure I don't want to say in upstate NY. The people in the area where I work and live are just to dysfunctional to want to stay beyond my children graduating from high school.

I am reminded of the scene in the movie Red Dawn (as I remember) where the guy is lying dead beside the back of his pick up truck near the bumper where the sticker says "They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers" as they pry it from his cold dead fingers. And the Alamo where American Heros fought a last stand 'till dead against an overwhelming Mexican army.

Sorry friends, that is just not me. I'm no hero. Survival of my family takes priority over and above all else and I will consider every possibility including staying or leaving. But who knows how I will act when the time comes. I've been a hell of a local organizer and activist when my dander is up. I might just put my family on the boat and decide my time has come.

On a side note, did you know (along with other details) living in Canada for 3 years and denouncing your u.s. citizenship will get you Canadian Citizenship and once a Citizen you can leave, make money overseas and not be taxed on it? Canada has faired much better than we have since 2008. Not planning on it, but I'm close to the border for a quick exit if need be. Canada and Canadians are not considered the Great Satan. Other possibilities exist also. Continue to post good people. The spectrum of knowledge and thought here is invaluable.

[Morsecode]

On a side note, did you know (along with other details) living in Canada for 3 years and denouncing your u.s. citizenship will get you Canadian Citizenship...

But oh those details

If you're a blue collar American, forget Canada. Unless you have family there you will never get Permanent Resident status. Never mind citizenship.

First step: visit Immigration Canada and take the mandatory qualifying online test to see if you can submit a PR request. The test only takes a couple minutes...you can do it anonymously, no personal info required...and if you score a minimum 67 points (sometimes higher) they will let you apply.

I've taken the test a half dozen times over the past 10 years. Can't get past 52 points.

Now, if you have money, that's a whole 'nother deal. For $136,500 you can fast track to residency in Nova Scotia via a program called Provincial Nomination. You write them a check, essentially an open ended loan that pays 0% interest and has no fixed payback date...and so long as you're not a Bosnian war criminal you're in.

That amount was quoted to me in 2006. It may be different now.

[johnbrickner]

My bad, just reread the material. It's 5 not 3 years. And Morse, thanks for filling in some the details. Yea, I understand $$ and/or a business that hires Canadians will help things along, not to mention lower your tax rate up to 50% for several years.

[Morsecode]

They do love white collar Americans, especially doctors, software super-geeks, athletes & artists, and business owners of all kinds (with accompanying business documentation, naturally)

At one point I had a guy up there who would've gone on record with a job offer for me. For a forestry services company. Unfortunately, the gov't would not sign off on it due to the abundance of able-bodied Canadians who could fill that position.

At the time, I naively thought that my owning property there would be a consideration. It wasn't, and isn't.

It's Catch-22. Having a job there helps you qualify for PR status, but you can't legally work in Canada as a visitor. Some exceptions are made for foreign students.

I guess you could always marry a Canadian

[Copper Catcher]

If you are being really serious about leaving......and have a half million to a million dollars you can drop on a permanent residence. With the right connections you can become a Bahamian Citizen....
http://www.mondaq.com/x/201428/Guide+To ... he+Bahamas

There is no income tax, capital gains tax, purchase or sales tax, VAT or capital transfer tax in Bahamas. This applies not only to individuals, but also to all resident corporations, partnerships and trusts. Employees pay national insurance contributions, there is stamp duty on property and mortgage transactions, and a tax on real property. Customs duties are quite high on most imported goods.

The Bahamas offers the offshore financial sector freedom from corporate, personal income, capital gains, withholding, inheritance, and estate taxes. However, income received in the Bahamas may be subject to the taxes in the country of origin.

There are no tax information exchange agreements between the Bahamas and any other country. These advantages are supported by a strong respect for privacy, flexible exchange controls, geographical location and continued record of political stability.

Government Tax Revenue is derived from the following sources:
- Import and export duties
- Property tax
- Motor vehicles
- Gaming tax
- Tourism tax
- Stamp tax
- Company fees

[Copper Catcher]

Another spot folks seriously thinking about leaving and going too is Costa Rica!
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... Costa+Rica


To learn more about the cost difference you can look at this website: http://costarica.com/relocation/cost-of-living/

[fansubs_ca]

I guess you could always marry a Canadian

I understand they've made that not so automatic anymore. Also I should note
that divorce is just as expensive here as in the U.S.

Too bad I'm not in charge of immigration, my criteria would be:

#1: Speak, understand, read and write English.
(Substitute French if you are willing to confine yourself to Quebec. ^_-)
#2: Be familiar with our currency. (Including the 50¢ piece. ^_-)
#3: Demonstrate a full understanding that ice and snow are slippery and they
commonly cover almost the entire surface of Canada during certain months
of the year and you won't look for someone else to blame if you fall on your
ass because it's your own damn fault.
#4: Do not have a criminal record for anything that would be a crime under
current Canadian law.
#5: Have not been kicked out of Canada previously.

The chances of me leading a successfull revolution are unfortunately not
good. ^_-

I could go into things I would kick people out of the country for but that
would be annother post... ^_-

[theo]

If you are leaving the U.S. to avoid the worst consequences of an American (and then global) economic collapse, you need to consider how such an event would effect the conditions in your prospective new home. For example if you want to escape North to Canada you should remember how mutually dependent these two economies are. The Bahamas make even less sense in a collapse scenario. Many of these islands have much larger populations than could be supported by indigenous resources. Do you really want to be there when the re-supply boats from the mainland stop coming?

I think that the ideal destination would be resource rich, sparely populated and decidedly low-tech. Panama and Costa Rica seem fit this bill, but their political stability (post-collapse) and cultural/language challenges concern me. I know that with a full scale collapse things in the U.S. would be very bad, however some areas might fare pretty well. Moving abroad might make sense for those who have means along with the correct knowledge and skill set, but for most us, it might make more sense to seek out the more resilient communities in our own country.

[aloneibreak]

If you are leaving the U.S. to avoid the worst consequences of an American (and then global) economic collapse, you need to consider how such an event would effect the conditions in your prospective new home. For example if you want to escape North to Canada you should remember how mutually dependent these two economies are. The Bahamas make even less sense in a collapse scenario. Many of these islands have much larger populations than could be supported by indigenous resources. Do you really want to be there when the re-supply boats from the mainland stop coming?

I think that the ideal destination would be resource rich, sparely populated and decidedly low-tech. Panama and Costa Rica seem fit this bill, but their political stability (post-collapse) and cultural/language challenges concern me. I know that with a full scale collapse things in the U.S. would be very bad, however some areas might fare pretty well. Moving abroad might make sense for those who have means along with the correct knowledge and skill set, but for most us, it might make more sense to seek out the more resilient communities in our own country.

a big +1 to this

john, I see you are in NY -- no wonder you want to run

move a few states west - things are a bit more bearable over here

[IdahoCopper]

New Zealand pretty much tops the list. If you have assets you can "buy" a resident permit. Australia is a close second or third. Iceland fits in there somewhere too.

[Hawkeye]

New Zealand pretty much tops the list. If you have assets you can "buy" a resident permit. Australia is a close second or third. Iceland fits in there somewhere too.

The more I think about it, the more I like New Zealand. Big and modern enough to support itself, but not so big as to be a major prize in war. Convenient in that they speak English and seem to be nice people, but far enough away from everything else that they just might fly under the radar in a collapse. If you're leaning that direction, I'd get there as soon as possible. If there is a collapse, I would assume that the line to get in there would get pretty big pretty fast.

[IdahoCopper]

Do a google for "emmigrate to". And see the suggested complete. Iceland, New Zealand, Australia, Sweden.

[Hawkeye]

Do a google for "emmigrate to". And see the suggested complete. Iceland, New Zealand, Australia, Sweden.

It brought up basically all of the Scandinavian/Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland) and Australia/New Zealand. Interesting. I could be persuaded to live in just about any of those places. (Denmark and Australia being my least favorite of the ones mentioned)