Best laid plans of mice and men.....

[Treetop]

Thought I would share a recent and horrible experience. As many here know I raise goats. It took me several years and alot of cash to find goats I liked. Most goats earn their annoying reputations. Coyotes never bothered them at all even with the small babies I sometimes had. Well, a neighbor had some mean dogs and they got out last night. Slaughtered all the goats in one of two pens I have. The most important ones actually my buck and his two babies. The babies having proved my efforts worth it, fully having the personality traits I was after. Very personable, from great lines and easy to work with. I would literally grin every time I saw the babies. would have had much more and tastier milk next year. It took visiting dozens of goat owners, and culling most of those that initially seemed worthwhile to get to that point.

They werent eaten just throats ripped out. Apparently Id have to take them to court to get any retribution since I dont sell the goats commercially. The animal control literally only took the dogs over lack of shots, and if they get the shots they can get them back. Plus they would no doubt just get more dogs anyway. That is a different crappy story though.

The real point of the post is that I really thought I had the goat thing down pat. After several years I had no coyote or mountain lion issues. Apparently I just got lucky. Im honestly not even sure what to do at this point. Maybe buy a dog to keep in with the goats? I dunno.... Expect the unexpected I guess.

[Treetop]

Even worse, I mean I thought Id never have to buy another goat. Now Im back at the beginning and don't really have the several grand I originally used to get to this point. I have a decent back up male lined up already, but I sure wont have the extra and tastier milk next year, let alone the other traits I worked to solidify.

[Rosco]

I know your pain as we saw the dog chasing our sheep. Shot at an missed but the dog was controlled there after.
Oregon had laws about dogs an live stock, not sure now.

#1 Son an Wife purchased property an have sheep with a Lama as Protector no problems with Dogs.

[franklin]

treetop:
Sorry to hear of your loss. I raise sheep, town has encroached and I no longer live in the country. Coyotes are around and show up on my game cams but haven't bothered me in over 20 years. Luckily we have not had the dog problem but I did invest in a non-climbable horse fence years ago which has most likely helped. We have spent many years developing the line of animals we prefer so I realize your frustration on losing those animals.
If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't invest any capital in replacement stock until you are certain the owners of the offending dogs understand that it can't happen again. If they are willing to help, work with them. If they are in denial and you are certain their dogs did it, don't make any threats regarding their dogs but stand ready to eliminate the animals if they venture back on your property. Many counties around here give the owner of livestock the authority to eliminate animals that are killing stock. Don't know about yours. I thought I remembered you were in Alaska years ago but could be mistaken.
30 years ago, before we owned these sheep, we owned some Barbados with 4 other guys and had them in a pen, working our Australian Shepherds on them. One night a couple of local dogs got in and mauled about 10 sheep. Not one was killed outright but all were hamstrung with the rear of the legs chewed out. Simply out of a blood lust. It was not a pretty sight. Good luck.

[Treetop]

I had heard llamas were great for that before rosco, but forgot about it. Now that Im thinking more, I will get one, and raise the fence some, even though they couldnt get into the second pen anyway. Apparently a male llama will decide its the leader of the herd when they live with goats or sheep because they are larger, and they also instinctively hate dogs and most males will fight them. That is probably my safest route at this point.

"If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't invest any capital in replacement stock until you are certain the owners of the offending dogs understand that it can't happen again. "

Looking at how they lived and related to their dogs, and history of mean dogs according to the neighbors I expect they will never learn. If I want to keep my animals, I just need them better protected. I am just going to get the llama and a single male for now, but I really dont want to wait. I need my surviving females to breed this fall even if not the ideal lines Im going to continue to work on.

Anyway I thought my loss might help some others rethink things that currently work. I thought my set up was solid.

[Chaboo]

Wow - words just don't cover my feelings for you right now. How sad. The neighbor's said/done nothing?! I can't imagine sleeping at night knowing I'm responsible for someone else's loss like that.

[pitw]

Man that was a sucky deal. Them damb dogs sometimes come back if they ain't deaded as they liked what they did.

[theshoenlebens]

I feel for you, We had this happen to some goats my parents had. They were just killed and not eaten at all. Called the wildlife agency and they came out and couldn't determine if dogs or coyotes got them. Either way, my parents were reimbursed for the market value from the state. The dog license fees go toward things such as this in Ohio so might check in your state.

[Treetop]

I feel for you, We had this happen to some goats my parents had. They were just killed and not eaten at all. Called the wildlife agency and they came out and couldn't determine if dogs or coyotes got them. Either way, my parents were reimbursed for the market value from the state. The dog license fees go toward things such as this in Ohio so might check in your state.

yeah nothing like this here, or if so our local game animal control never heard of it. IF I had the proof of what I paid for the male the owner of the dogs would be responsible. All I have is a bill of sale with 3 goats on it not distinguishing what I paid for each and the women I got them from claims to have no records of any of it. So Ive got nothing. The two babies born here mean zero on this unless I was an established legal breeder who sold them and had an easy market value to put on them. So at this point if I want them to pay I have to go to small claims court. They only even took the dogs because of a lack of rabies shots. It wasnt rabies that had them like this it was how they were raised. They can get the things back if they get them up to date in some set time period, even with these attacks and several neighbors having told the animal control they feared these dogs.

"The neighbor's said/done nothing?!"

He told the animal control hed make payments on the 400 she was telling him he owed IF I got proof of what I paid. which when I looked I dont in fact really have since it was all lumped as one sale on the paperwork I have. They wouldnt even look at me, and certainly offered no apology when I was there with the animal control and sheriff.

Just to be perfectly clear I asked the sheriffs if I can shoot them if those or future dogs did something similar. Their answer was basically a wink and a "just make sure they were aggressive towards you or your kids". Considering how much longer it would take them to do this next time they sure wont be leaving my yard if Im home and this happens again. hopefully a llama can cover it if Im not here.

[franklin]

If the neighbors get the dogs back, their blood lust will not allow them to ignore your stock. They will be back. Glad you have a plan. Good luck.

[wheeler_dealer]

Post your property. Than you have more recluse. Take them to court. Inconvenience them.

[fasteddy]

Dammit man that really sucks, My friends near Abilene TX use a Llama for the goats...and the animals are on property no one lives on. How about game cameras for proof next time. I like wheeler_dealer thought of taking them to court just to inconvenience them maybe they pay up to stay out of court.

[hobo finds]

Info on llamas and even guard donkeys here... http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/ansc442 ... onkeys.htm

[hobo finds]

I could ship you some Colorado River Toads! That would end the dog problem...

[Mossy]

S. S. S.

[68Camaro]

sorry to hear that zac. I've enjoyed hearing about your adventures with them. Sounds like there are some good ideas here. I did not know that about llamas.

[Treetop]

We are hesitant to even push the issue in court. Obviously wed love the money but they dont appear to have it. It would be more then any of their half a dozen vehicles they had were worth. Their trailer looked like they got it as scrap, saw holes in the inside and outside walls, and even the floor. could get a lien on their place, but then I have three fools that think raising dogs to be particularly mean is desirable, angry. Mostly Im just glad I know more about them now. Ive now met all our neighbors, glad to know which two homes hold potentially dangerous people. It actually solidified our community out here to a surprising degree. For better or worse its basically us versus them out here now. Them being this dog family and another fool I believe I made a post on here about awhile back.

More interesting tidbits from our talks with the neighbors over it but we can leave those points off a public forum.

[Treetop]

Oh and the buck has been replaced already. Not from quite as good of lines (for milking traits) as his predecessor, nor does he have the same personality traits but got a good price on him, and we wont really have the funds to invest in this the right way for awhile anyway. Much harder to get the best goats in a place like this with so few quality breeders this late in the season. So happy enough with him for now.

[Mossy]

Treetop, quick thought: People might be reluctant to sell goats with charactor traits you want to people who would probably eat them. Widen the search to include places further away?

[Treetop]

Yeah thats the current plan actually. Will head probably to texas once we have adequate funds and go to some of the larger breeders of the breeds of goats I like. So just the shorter term solution for now. Lots of quality goat herds in texas.

[Treetop]

Not that it matters but I thought Id add some perspective after describing this neighbors "home". One family out here lives in a literal camper, there are a few trailers, a few cabins people just hang out in on weekends. There are also several modest homes and a few worth hundreds of thousands. Probably about 5-6 places would be worth .5-1 million if built where I grew up in rural ohio. Not exactly sure the market value for them here honestly. lol so not really how most communities are built up.

Anyway, hopefully my plight got someone to rethink things that had already been working well, for those outlier situations.

[knibloe]

Treetop,

I feel your pain. When I was a boy we had a small farm where we raised a variety of livestock including goats, and turkeys. Unfortunately, we lived between two neighbors (each about a mile away). They were very much like the people you described. Their dogs travelled between their houses frequently. Not sure what changed one day, they decided to start attacking our livestock. Never killed any of the goats, but did a number on our turkeys and rabbits.

The authorities were no help. However, they did start keeping them to home when two of them disappeared.

Good luck. Hope you have a speedy turnaround from your misfortune.

[Treetop]

Update for anyone who followed this. All three of the dogs were put down. The owners failed to respond in the allotted time and get them shots. Lack of funds cited they had begged for more time.

Further inquired why no one came to get the info on what I had paid for the goats. Was intending to have them talk to the women I got them from, coupled with the paper I have that lumped three goats onto one bill of sale. They now have no idea what I am talking about. Claim to have never said I could be paid for the goat I had proof of value on at all. lol freaking new mexico.

[Shazbot57]

Treetop,
Sorry to hear of your trouble, and I sense it may be of little consolation, but it sounds like it may be remedied, at least for now. Here in the Missouri Ozarks we have from time to time seen this same thing, packs of almost feral "pet" dogs roaming the countryside attacking livestock and annoying farm owners & ranchers. One family I know lost 3 of their pet beagles to a pack down the road - until the owner who lived alone died. The county picked up his dogs and that was the end of that. Many farmers have chosen to have large breed protective dogs for their livestock, (especially sheep, goats, & fowl), like Great Pyrenees (although I don't know how they would manage in New Mexico). They are pretty common around here, and are great protectors of family & livestock. You'd have to judge for yourself whether the cost of feeding/maintaining of the dog(s) would offset any losses of livestock. If the "predator" situation returns, I'd try a large breed protective dog with herding instincts.

Another breed, which you could research is a Caucasian Ovcharka (but only if you are a strong leader, & research/train carefully). These are fearless shepherding dogs from the Caucasus Region that live with the livestock and are known to ward off wolves & bears. Check them out. They'll also keep the Meth heads & Varmints (2 or 4 legged) at bay! I hope this helps...

[Treetop]

Another set of dogs would should one show up (the other one is dead now) shouldnt be able to get in with my goats. The fence is taller now. Plan to add razor wire as well. We also have a dog now plan to get a second. Current one is an austrailian cattle dog AKA a red heeler. Plan for the second to be a pyrenees.

On the brighter side, I still prefer the male I lost but the current one has alot of traits I like as well. So not a complete loss.