Has 90% Junk Silver Disappeared?

[beauanderos]

I've heard it said that the current scarcity of ninety percent junk silver is merely that LCS are holding back stock as they
prefer not to sell at these prices, or that "strong hands" are unwilling to sell at any price. But we all know there are those
who buy silver, not as insurance, but for quick fiat profits.

Here's the question... right now you just aren't seeing much junk silver listed.
At what price will melt need to rise to in order for the junk listings to start popping up again?

[Rodebaugh]

Always buying......Always selling.

Although it has been a little lopsided to the selling side as of late.

[neilgin1]

I've heard it said that the current scarcity of ninety percent junk silver is merely that LCS are holding back stock as they
prefer not to sell at these prices, or that "strong hands" are unwilling to sell at any price. But we all know there are those
who buy silver, not as insurance, but for quick fiat profits.

Here's the question... right now you just aren't seeing much junk silver listed.
At what price will melt need to rise to in order for the junk listings to start popping up again?

believe it or not, they are not holding back on Ebay, I checked just today, but its the premium that's the thing, and some of the auction sellers are drawing the line and posting GEM/BU rolls $10 to $15 over the board at buy it nows...($200-$259)....but there's variety, all the major 90%'ers from the 20th century....rolls, and not all buy it nows.

as treacherous Ebay is, you can say this for it....its a FREE market, and what does one trust for REAL price discovery? a stacker auction site, or a bunch of pencil necked privileged little sh*ts sitting in front of screens trading gummit money?

the last auction of 90's I watched was a roll of 64 Kenns that went for 178, and that prices a toz of Ag at $25

MCM still has rolls of Maples, in various lot sizes, 5 coin to 8 rolls, and they're attaching a 4 to 7 dollar premium, and the coins, in this case .9999's are selling.

[Cu Penny Hoarder]

I have never sold any of my 90% Ag. Been accumulating it since 1985. Not looking to buy any because I feel I have plenty already and the premiums are too high right now. I only buy if I happen to stumble on a very good deal (my recent Morgan's purchase).

[Computer Jones]

I'm looking for the Au:Ag ratio to drop below 20 to 1 and then I'll trade 90% for Gold.
Luckily, I'm able to wait...

[Know Common Cents]

Even if I was a regular seller of US 90%, I'd have retreated to the sidelines while the market searches for a direction. Too easy to get caught in the old "trick bag" as the saying does. I'm still a firm believer in the fundamentals of owning PMs, though, any try to buy on the dips.

[TXBullion]

I still have some 90% that I think is 24xface but some its most full weight or au / bu coin with some older date. Not very much but I would prefer not to part with it under any price , well maybe would start considering 100 FV IF I could find a relatively better place I felt I could put the money to use at that time.

[beauanderos]

I still have some 90% that I think is 24xface but some its most full weight or au / bu coin with some older date. Not very much but I would prefer not to part with it under any price , well maybe would start considering 100 FV IF I could find a relatively better place I felt I could put the money to use at that time.

I will trickle sell some into the market at much higher prices, but only to eliminate any remaining debt that I might still have. If you see me post a sale, it only means I'm rebalancing my stack in some fashion.

[TXBullion]

I still have some 90% that I think is 24xface but some its most full weight or au / bu coin with some older date. Not very much but I would prefer not to part with it under any price , well maybe would start considering 100 FV IF I could find a relatively better place I felt I could put the money to use at that time.

I will trickle sell some into the market at much higher prices, but only to eliminate any remaining debt that I might still have. If you see me post a sale, it only means I'm rebalancing my stack in some fashion.

Its always like clock worth with you. I see you selling and sure enough , 3 ads below, PM sent on someone elses ad I know how it goes !

[beauanderos]

Now, old dependable... Provident Metals has run out of ninety percent junk as well. They only have Walker halves in stock and want 15.95X for a roll

http://www.providentmetals.com/bullion/silver/us-slv/90-slv.html

[neilgin1]

Now, old dependable... Provident Metals has run out of ninety percent junk as well. They only have Walker halves in stock and want 15.95X for a roll

http://www.providentmetals.com/bullion/silver/us-slv/90-slv.html

OB, last night I went to the Ampex website for the first time, and I didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling, not an emotional thing, it was just kind of vague, what they actually HAVE and what they don't...and the ONLY thing I want these days are RCM Ag Maples in rolls of 25, and they say they're "waiting" for new stock by Sep 22....and i'm thinking "yeh right, let me send you the digits, or routing and acct number to my account".....sure, that'll happen when I hear God the Holy Ghost telling me that hell has froze over.....plus, now every page that I load, I got this HUGE banner ad for Ampex. (yes, I know about cookies and all that).....and just one more thing......when I read a certain company...whatever it is, boasts about being the "largest"?...it trips off an opposite reaction in me.

there's three things that have happened in this year that have made me extra cautious....Nates photo of the chicom 90% fugazi's, Tulving, and 68's recent little nightmare over a single Au Maple. You see, I collate the little pieces of info to ascertain the bigger picture. That has served me well, all my life.

Besides, when I went to Provident, and saw..yes, only bags of Walkings....$500 FV....to get a canvas bag of fifty 10FV rolls of Walkings, for I think 7800 USD......now if wanted to fire off all my guns, I could do it, but why would I?....there is NO WAY anybody could tell me, that they meet the 7.15 toz per 10 face "requirement" I demand.......bs, bs bs.....more like 6.50 toz of Ag per 10 face....if I wanted to fire all my guns off , I would have done it two months ago, when MCM was offering Maple monster boxes at , I think 9,700 USD. but I didn't, and I don't regret it, because for whats coming......stacking by itself, aint gonna do it. as I said many many times, I operate under the "four legged chair" theory.......meaning you got to cover the three "B's" (beans bullets band-aids) PLUS the stack.

Now I've got over 4 to 500 transactions on Ebay over the years, and never once did I have a problem, primarily coz I "studied" each seller, everything, from the pictures, the descriptions, the fine print, AND all their previous feedbacks......and once I either won an auction, or hit the buy it now, I paid within TWO minutes, sellers LOVE that, means they don't have to sit and worry, and impels them to NOT make me, sit and worry.

Now OB, don't take the tenor of this post wrong, its NOT a rebuke to you, banish that thought, i'm quite fond of you....i'm just MAD, because FINALLY I figured out what these high and mighty price suppressors are up to, what their game is.....they drive down Ag prices past the cost of production, so that THEY can snap up as many of those wholesale 1000 toz bumper size, 65 lb loaves of Ag, that are still in comex warehouses....that's their game, and what pisses me off, is they're doing it with Fed based electronic zero percent digits...and that is criminal behavior. period.

whew! excuse the rant, but its based in the fact, I LOVE this country, and thru the combination of dubious, irresponsible leadership, along with the majority of our fellow citizens abrogating their duty to be "well informed" as the Constitution requires, we are headed in a very bad direction....and it needn't be.

be well, my dear OB, YB

[InfleXion]

I would consider some profit taking at $50/oz, although I would probably still sit and wait because if it breaks $50 then it could be heading to $75 based on fibonacci sequences. So somewhere in that range I would consider selling my least favorite silver in my stack for profit taking and immediate re-investment in something else such as a car or some other tangible asset I could make use of, but I am not selling my junk silver because they don't make it anymore.

[neilgin1]

I would consider some profit taking at $50/oz, although I would probably still sit and wait because if it breaks $50 then it could be heading to $75 based on fibonacci sequences. So somewhere in that range I would consider selling my least favorite silver in my stack for profit taking and immediate re-investment in something else such as a car or some other tangible asset I could make use of, but I am not selling my junk silver because they don't make it anymore.

Flex,
as you can tell, via our dialogues, I have great respect for you.

let me say this, I see a day, cant tell you the exact timing, when a $50 bill will be worth, (in todays value) somewhere between one cent and five cents.....and that's me being 'generous', meaning it could be as low as .001 of a cent.

call me crazy, its been done before, but I believe that "normalcy bias" is a dreadful virus, to be resisted at all costs. Which is why..(and don't laugh) I think that the fictional new series "Fear the Walking Dead", of which I JUST watched episode 2, is valuable in the sense that one gets a taste of how things will play out, when the wheels fall off........and I am NOT saying "zombie apocalypse" is an coming thing...(lol)....what I am saying is that, in this episode and the first, the main characters see small signs of SOMETHING dreadfully wrong, yet they cant wrap their minds around this dread event, and have to go thru a very hairy learning curve.

while many parts of the world are literal hellholes, and people lead short brutal lives, we Americans take our 1st world amenities as almost a birthright......normalcy bias, when in fact, a storm of unimaginable proportions looms on the horizon, and yet most of our countrymen continue to ignore the signs, and just revel in their entertainments, free porn, cheap food and gas, fancy clothing, etc etc etc......just like children dancing underneath a smoking Vesuvius in the background, until that pyroclastic wave of fire hit them in a matter of minutes.......you can even see the outlines of their bodies encased in the town of Pompeii, when the volcano blew in 79 AD.

there's a storm coming.

brace.

of all the recent apocalyptic genre films, say post 9/11, I believe the film "Take Shelter", is the best, because the director Nichols "paints" in very subtle brushstrokes, no drooling monsters or zombies, or flaming asteroids, and the only time it really gets "heavy" is this scene when the main character "Curtis" is attacked by his workmate, due to a personal conflict, and Curtis just explodes, when throughout the film his character has been very soft spoken. as a film making note, the extras in this Lions Club dinner scene, did not know Michael Shanahan was going to explode like he did in this scene, so the B and C cameras were tasked to pick up close ups of regular folks, REALLY in shock.....it was very smart film making trick, because extras don't realize the key to professional "acting" is NOT to "act", but just to BE.

great film, I recommend it highly. "Take Shelter".

[beauanderos]

I would consider some profit taking at $50/oz, although I would probably still sit and wait because if it breaks $50 then it could be heading to $75 based on fibonacci sequences. So somewhere in that range I would consider selling my least favorite silver in my stack for profit taking and immediate re-investment in something else such as a car or some other tangible asset I could make use of, but I am not selling my junk silver because they don't make it anymore.

Flex,
as you can tell, via our dialogues, I have great respect for you.

let me say this, I see a day, cant tell you the exact timing, when a $50 bill will be worth, (in todays value) somewhere between one cent and five cents.....and that's me being 'generous', meaning it could be as low as .001 of a cent.

call me crazy, its been done before, but I believe that "normalcy bias" is a dreadful virus, to be resisted at all costs. Which is why..(and don't laugh) I think that the fictional new series "Fear the Walking Dead", of which I JUST watched episode 2, is valuable in the sense that one gets a taste of how things will play out, when the wheels fall off........and I am NOT saying "zombie apocalypse" is an coming thing...(lol)....what I am saying is that, in this episode and the first, the main characters see small signs of SOMETHING dreadfully wrong, yet they cant wrap their minds around this dread event, and have to go thru a very hairy learning curve.

while many parts of the world are literal hellholes, and people lead short brutal lives, we Americans take our 1st world amenities as almost a birthright......normalcy bias, when in fact, a storm of unimaginable proportions looms on the horizon, and yet most of our countrymen continue to ignore the signs, and just revel in their entertainments, free porn, cheap food and gas, fancy clothing, etc etc etc......just like children dancing underneath a smoking Vesuvius in the background, until that pyroclastic wave of fire hit them in a matter of minutes.......you can even see the outlines of their bodies encased in the town of Pompeii, when the volcano blew in 79 AD.

there's a storm coming.

brace.

of all the recent apocalyptic genre films, say post 9/11, I believe the film "Take Shelter", is the best, because the director Nichols "paints" in very subtle brushstrokes, no drooling monsters or zombies, or flaming asteroids, and the only time it really gets "heavy" is this scene when the main character "Curtis" is attacked by his workmate, due to a personal conflict, and Curtis just explodes, when throughout the film his character has been very soft spoken. as a film making note, the extras in this Lions Club dinner scene, did not know Michael Shanahan was going to explode like he did in this scene, so the B and C cameras were tasked to pick up close ups of regular folks, REALLY in shock.....it was very smart film making trick, because extras don't realize the key to professional "acting" is NOT to "act", but just to BE.

great film, I recommend it highly. "Take Shelter".

I agree... a movie I enjoyed quite a bit, I liked the way they marginalized the validity of his preps didn't care much for the ending, though

[Treetop]

I thought take shelter was pretty lame myself. Put his family at risk because of a feeling, could have prepped without doing that. He left his families future more uncertain then ever, exact opposite of his goal.

[neilgin1]

I thought take shelter was pretty lame myself. Put his family at risk because of a feeling, could have prepped without doing that. He left his families future more uncertain then ever, exact opposite of his goal.

Tree,
I sure am sorry you feel that way........but some folks like some films, and others don't. I was offering a metaphor on "normalcy bias", "Take Shelter" was one, the encased bodies at the Pompeii site were another. Its my fault, I wasn't precise enough.

You mentioned that in the film "Curtis" left his families future "more uncertain than ever", and the use of the word, "uncertain" is interesting to me, because "normalcy bias" is the illusion that this life, or people's future is certain, that we continue in the paradigm we've built, which is petro-world.....a world that takes ten calories of energy to make one calorie of food.....normalcy bias is the utter refusal to accept that such a paradigm is highly uncertain, just as our own lives are also uncertain. That's what I was trying to say.

and my own statement, "a storm is coming", is NOT a "feeling", its a lament of certainty, and a whole lot of grief, because in this world, much can be seen with the natural eyes, which is painful enough, but be taken beyond that? Brother, foresight is not a gift, its a curse.

fondly, n.

back to our regularly scheduled programming....."Has 90% Junk Silver Disappeared?"

[Doctor Steuss]

Now, old dependable... Provident Metals has run out of ninety percent junk as well. They only have Walker halves in stock and want 15.95X for a roll

http://www.providentmetals.com/bullion/silver/us-slv/90-slv.html

Monarch has a single roll of Washingtons, at 14.68X, and a couple rolls of Roosies for 14.82X. If you've got an itch that absolutely must be scratched (at any cost).

[beauanderos]

Now, old dependable... Provident Metals has run out of ninety percent junk as well. They only have Walker halves in stock and want 15.95X for a roll

http://www.providentmetals.com/bullion/silver/us-slv/90-slv.html

Monarch has a single roll of Washingtons, at 14.68X, and a couple rolls of Roosies for 14.82X. If you've got an itch that absolutely must be scratched (at any cost).

I like the fact that Monarch will charge you less for a standard Washington quarter... then they will for a worn dateless Standing Liberty!
http://www.monarchpreciousmetals.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=50&Itemid=53

[Treetop]

You mentioned that in the film "Curtis" left his families future "more uncertain than ever", and the use of the word, "uncertain" is interesting to me, because "normalcy bias" is the illusion that this life, or people's future is certain, that we continue in the paradigm we've built, which is petro-world.....a world that takes ten calories of energy to make one calorie of food.....normalcy bias is the utter refusal to accept that such a paradigm is highly uncertain, just as our own lives are also uncertain. That's what I was trying to say.

Ive set up for every scenario I could imagine just because I could without ever making my families future less uncertain. I get why you used it as an example, normalcy bias is very real and dangerous imo. On acting on his dreams though he made certain their future was harder. He didnt have to do it that way to get the job done.

Interesting you used this as an example my my own work is all about growing more food with less inputs. Other potentials exist. With treecrops taking a renewed role we have the potential to a see a paradigm taking less inputs then ever, also with low labor levels involved that is more stable and productive then anything else to date. I mean he unearthed his currently running method to support his family trying to address an unknown. Since you mention food the equivalent might be realizing we cant sustain the current model indefinitely so we grow no food at all with this model next year then scramble around trying to adjust to a new model the next. Instead of building the new paradigm over this one while this one still works.

Complex topic. Worth noting though that we dont ACTUALLY need that many inputs to produce food, we need that much to produce food at the levels our empire can control and manipulate other nations. As far as grains, we have large segments of earth by the shorthairs. Our own nation feeds itself many times over. When this paradigm runs its course it wont be the US failing most likely, unless other factors caused that. It will be all those poor nations that rely on the subsidized grain the US floods the markets with who will be the most likely to suffer. Wouldnt be hard to maintain this paradigm here with the oil we have for many generations if it was only to feed our own nation or to transition to something better. Of course depending on how it plays out there might be a steep learning curve for many because most dont even have the seed for other models, but we are still in a better position then most in this regard as a nation because we just have so much space. Yields could be a tiny fraction of what they are currently and we could feed ourselves. Doesnt matter what anyone else tells you, this model doesnt in fact grow the most food, it just does it the cheapest with least labor involved. Easy to hide the truth of this when so few use modern knowledge in older models to truly perfect them and even more, breed for such. No other country spends anywhere close to what we do on breeding for this current model. It isnt like we dont have lots of people who could use work either, so switching to a labor based model although it would change alot is very workable. For OUR nation, again its the rest of the world relying on our cheaply produced food who will suffer more then us. If it doesnt play out abruptly we wouldnt suffer at all besides paying more for food.

the biggest danger for our nation is scenarios where central planning has failed (no gov) and the people have to adapt to a new model on our own. Most homesteaders dont grow grains or know how. Our grain farmers are a tiny fraction of other models so while they shouldnt have a problem feeding themselves and neighbors few of them will be bringing labor in en masse to ensure they grow massive amounts of food. Further most would be hard pressed to maintain fertility long term. All this can be done just fine, its just in abrupt scenarios without planning, learning curves could be very steep. lol normalcy bias dont ya know.

Large portions of the world will be in chaos when we stop shipping them our food, cheapest food humans ever produced en masse that werent easily caught wild fish.

[neilgin1]

oh for land's sake!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roll-of-40-Silv ... 5423cbd991

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLL-OF-1964-P- ... 2357e1c410

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLL-OF-MIXED-K ... 2357e10b56
the above seller also has three more rolls of 40's.

oh oh....little disconnect on the next one...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-BU-Roll-1956- ... 51d6e18c4f

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-BU-Roll-of-90 ... 2806c523f8

ohoh again.....what is silver REALLY worth?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Roll-of-90-Si ... 5b17d3d578

auction!!! current bid for a 10 face of 64 Kenn's....$8.27!!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-1964-Kennedy ... 2ee56e887b
this seller has two more rolls offered
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-1964-Kennedy ... 2ee56e84df
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-1964-Kennedy ... 2ee56e8027

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roll-of-BU-1963 ... 3f52c70fc4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-ROLL-1 ... 5423a8bef8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIXED-ROLL-OF-C ... 210186a76f

wow....litte high priced for 64 Wash BU's, but is this the real price of silver, or is it the 14.60 on the board?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Roll-1 ... 51d6c7dffa

okay....that's enough....90's are there, you just have to engage in free market price discovery

[neilgin1]

thank you Tree....for the reply.

if I disagree with some points you brought up, please understand, its NOT for the sake of being contentious.

we are at peak oil, right now.....we're just in whats called the "rocky plateau" phase, we produce 90 mln barrels a day global, and the real outlying problem is the EroEi, Energy Return on Energy Invested....its down to 1 to 3 now, and some methods, say Canadian tar sands, are just nasty......and look at the news today, all them "progressives" thought Barry was their guy, but now he's been told to open up the Artic for drilling, and he is now in Alaska.....its all a little strange, but what isn't in these days?

now lets remember a couple of things, most of our population is urbanized, or suburbanized (which is built over ex-farmland), also the avg age of the American farmer is 57....and I can tell you this, given that most grocery concerns operate on JIT supplying (just in time) those urban centers will run out of food very quickly and unrest will ensue. the President, when he signed the NDAA, there are codicils in there, that when he goes martial law. ALL food resource belongs to the Feds...now my county, size of manhattan , and 20,000 people produces more food than you can imagine, of all varities......those sneaker geniuses in DC must think folks out here, and all the fly over states that produce the food of this nation, are just going to roll over and say "yes massa", when the gummit comes to grab?

and as far as our gvt sending food to other nations, that was the PL480 program, used to see it a LOT in the 80's, but check out global wheat stats in WASDE, for the last 15 years, the supply/demand surplus for wheat, lets just say, has been razor thin....I understand what you're saying about localized food production,and agree...as well as many folks around here do.

I cant dissect your post point by point, but where I live, Upper Midwest, in the rural areas, most of the folks families have been up here for 150-185 years, hence everything is done pretty much decently and in order...the biggest crime issue is DWI's...or rotten little sprouts jacklighting deer, just coz they're bored, but that's it....and newcomer that I am, I was lucky enough to be "adopted" by one of the most kick ass, rough neck clans around here, coz people like me.(I know i'm meandering off topic...sorry) but the point i'm trying to make and this is NOT a racist point, in a multiple county area, all ag, the populace is 99% white.the only reason I bring that up is, we don't have that TENSION that is sweeping so many other parts of the nation, and there are no race hating "groups" up here....BUT there is an underlying and deep mistrust of the Fed's...and outsiders...there is also a tendency towards self reliance.

instead of me just blithering on, like an idiot. (I been watching the mkt trade all day long) let me turn you onto a seminal documentary, you MIGHT have seen....if you haven't, I strongly suggest you invest the 80 minutes, you wont regret it, its called "Collapse", and features the late Michael Ruppert......the man was smart, but I guess he was consumed with grief, and weary of life, which is always sad to hear.....but watch this:



be well Tree, n

[Treetop]

Peak oil or not, our country can readily feed itself on less land and the world can produce as much or more food from the same land. Knowledge to do so is proven. It will just take alot more labor and thus cost more. We can produce much more from less if we tweak our entire mindset away from near full reliance on annual crops. Something many here are indeed working on, including myself. (Id already be able to show you if I was a bit wealthier, a bit slow going commercial, but Ill get there) Also lots of work was done on this in the semi recent past, then tabled. I can go in depth on the myriad of ways we could continue current levels or expand on them if you like. Ive debated this with people at all levels of the supply chain from farmers to people at the USDA to those breeding next generations seeds, all agree in the end btw...Numbers dont lie. Most other models just dont compete on price with the current so are sidelines and ignored. Ingenuity my friend. compartmentalized knowledge allows us to think our current model is the only or best way, its just the cheapest to maintain assuming you have oil. We even have more then enough people out of work to be sure we have enough labor if such a change is forced, but I doubt it will come to that level in my lifetime. should be atleast enough to run our tractors, fertilizing will be more likely to change, pesticides etc. Also longer term expect robots to take over, peak oil or not. Those working on this behind the scenes arent messing around.


"are just going to roll over and say "yes massa", when the gummit comes to grab?"

step back a bit neil. In the same paragraph you mentioned how far urban areas are removed from food production. You want them all to starve? TPTB built en empire, they might want to ensure they stay on top but they dont want their empire to die. With a little central planning, and low enough levels of chaos it can be contained, no one will go hungry for long. Even with lower yields then current. Who will support large land owners not letting their lands be used? Assuming it is temporary, just to get through transitional periods. Left loves central planning and the right remembers well the sacrifices of "the greatest generation" during ww2. This is a nation that took food off of most american plates to help a larger struggle, with a smile and pride in their hearts. Most will go right along with it, to ensure the nations future in most scenarios. The few percent who wont will be unlikely to fare well I expect. As for age of farmers, you need knowledge to manage one well, but to do the actual work, could train new people en masse in short order with good results if you had knowledgeable people showing them what to do. Id run a tractor a few seasons to help my neighbors if I was in a place it would help. Instead Ill be showing people how to use things relevant to this area.

My more conspiracy minded self sometimes wonders if people are lead to relate to these things in certain ways so the more radical mindsets left and right can be culled while the rest of society cheers it on, since they are doing things that could make us ALL fail.

[aloneibreak]

Peak oil or not, our country can readily feed itself on less land and the world can produce as much or more food from the same land. Knowledge to do so is proven. It will just take alot more labor and thus cost more. We can produce much more from less if we tweak our entire mindset away from near full reliance on annual crops. Something many here are indeed working on, including myself. (Id already be able to show you if I was a bit wealthier, a bit slow going commercial, but Ill get there) Also lots of work was done on this in the semi recent past, then tabled. I can go in depth on the myriad of ways we could continue current levels or expand on them if you like. Ive debated this with people at all levels of the supply chain from farmers to people at the USDA to those breeding next generations seeds, all agree in the end btw...Numbers dont lie. Most other models just dont compete on price with the current so are sidelines and ignored. Ingenuity my friend. compartmentalized knowledge allows us to think our current model is the only or best way, its just the cheapest to maintain assuming you have oil. We even have more then enough people out of work to be sure we have enough labor if such a change is forced, but I doubt it will come to that level in my lifetime. should be atleast enough to run our tractors, fertilizing will be more likely to change, pesticides etc. Also longer term expect robots to take over, peak oil or not. Those working on this behind the scenes arent messing around.


"are just going to roll over and say "yes massa", when the gummit comes to grab?"

step back a bit neil. In the same paragraph you mentioned how far urban areas are removed from food production. You want them all to starve? TPTB built en empire, they might want to ensure they stay on top but they dont want their empire to die. With a little central planning, and low enough levels of chaos it can be contained, no one will go hungry for long. Even with lower yields then current. Who will support large land owners not letting their lands be used? Assuming it is temporary, just to get through transitional periods. Left loves central planning and the right remembers well the sacrifices of "the greatest generation" during ww2. This is a nation that took food off of most american plates to help a larger struggle, with a smile and pride in their hearts. Most will go right along with it, to ensure the nations future in most scenarios. The few percent who wont will be unlikely to fare well I expect. As for age of farmers, you need knowledge to manage one well, but to do the actual work, could train new people en masse in short order with good results if you had knowledgeable people showing them what to do. Id run a tractor a few seasons to help my neighbors if I was in a place it would help. Instead Ill be showing people how to use things relevant to this area.

My more conspiracy minded self sometimes wonders if people are lead to relate to these things in certain ways so the more radical mindsets left and right can be culled while the rest of society cheers it on, since they are doing things that could make us ALL fail.

continuing off topic a bit, but i think in this area zac, you may be mistaken

i have no problem sacrificing for the "larger struggle" as you call it -- for people that genuinely need it

but when there are 48 million now stealing money from me by way of food stamps, most of whom imo, dont need them, my generosity and desire to suffer for the "larger struggle" fades ...

and good luck training people to use machinery to raise crops with any sort of success

it is next to impossible to find someone who will even show up to work on a regular basis let alone put in a full 80 hours or more in the hot sun and dust let alone be somewhat responsible with a quarter million dollar tractor or half a million dollar combine

this country is not made of the same type of folks as 75 years ago

the few of us that still work hard for what we have and dont have a sense of entitlement are a dying breed...

and you know as well as i do how anything "temporary" works out

[Treetop]

Really? You think a scenario where the whole economy is on its knees there would be a large segment of people who are against ensuring food is grown at high enough levels to feed the nation? I think it is basically certain you are wrong when even among homesteaders few can grow all their food, so would either be choosing likely starvation or a transitional model that ensures food keeps making it to the shelves. We have a very complex culture with high population, without a bit of central planning through a major shift assuming it happened fast of course we simply wont adapt fast enough. History shows this extensively.

"and good luck training people to use machinery to raise crops with any sort of success"

I ran them as a kid with a few minutes of training. As did many others around me. I know how hard farmers work, I was working up to 14 hour days 7 days a week as a teenager myself, but its all easy stuff. Besides managing, that can take true skill to do well, and many farmers excel at it, but even through pretty extreme stuff wed still have lots of knowledge make it to the other side. Plus I mean this is literally already happening, increasingly so. Lots of corporate owned farmlands out there now where those working it are paid an hourly wage to run the tractors. You really think an entire culture will just lay down and die? Wouldnt need the foodstamp people anyway, but even looking at them, most just get it because they can. If they had to work most of them would, actually many of them do now already just at low wages. Even without machinery though, the methods and knowledge exist. Any one who isnt disabled can do it if their life depended on it and they knew how.

" the few of us that still work hard for what we have and dont have a sense of entitlement are a dying breed..."
I agree, but this actually backs the idea most would be happy the gov was ensuring we still had food. those against would be the extreme minority. Even most very hardworking people will be happy the culture had food instead of starving to death. Plus alot of this is literally "because we could". Just like many children of rich kids end up with similar mindsets. Once that wealth fades a large portion might be upset but they will shakee their utopia visions from their eyes and get to work. I expect there will be a bullet for those who feel so entitled they riot in the street instead of being part of the solution. whos gonna be against that? society in tatters with rioters in the streets, put em down like dogs, few will bat an eye.

So lets say china EMPs the country, some of you would rather we just let chaos ensue rather then picking ourselves up in a way that most survive? Hopefully that mindset is the extreme minority or I expect we are doomed. We have ourselves painted into the corner as it is.

[fansubs_ca]

and just one more thing......when I read a certain company...whatever it is, boasts about being the "largest"?...it trips off an opposite reaction in me.

In the heyday of fansubs on VHS I made the claim that I was "the largest fansub distro
in Manitoba" only because of the odd co-incidence that at that particular point in time
I was the only one (therefore the largest) so it was a joke being that the claim of "being
the largest" is such a cliche. Now I claim to be the "largest (VHS) fansub distro in
North America" because all the other VHS people stopped years ago.

Of course I also told people to call their orders a "list of demands" so people knew I was
a bit "different".