Its all a scam.

[Recyclersteve]

Many posts on this topic already. I'm not saying anything new here. But if you're new to rc, while a little metal is good insurance your priority should be on water, food, self defense, safe shelter, finding like minded people you can trust who bring something to the table, etc. After you get those needs covered, go back to stacking.

+1.

It seems that most sales of silver are due to one of the four D's...

Death
Divorce
Desperation (I.e., pending bankruptcy or medical bills)
Dullness (that is, dullness of the markets- in other words people get sick of the market action after several or many years and look to liquidate)

[Recyclersteve]

What is sad is that fifty-seven percent of Americans don’t have enough cash to cover a $500 unexpected expense, according to a survey from Bankrate: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americ ... y-expense/ Like with so many things it all comes down to living within if not below your means. In America that seems to be difficult for not only individuals but the government as well.

I've seen these surveys a number of times and feel they strongly exaggerate the plight of people in this country. I'd be surprised if the real number was even 10%. My wife and I had accounts with four separate financial institutions that had less than $500 each in them. If any of those four companies did surveys of their clients, they would have come to the conclusion that our family couldn't come up with even $500 for an emergency. That's because they didn't take into account that we had much, much larger accounts elsewhere, and other assets like stocks, real estate, cash on hand and precious metals.

I know someone who didn't even open a bank account til he was well into his 40's. He did yard work for a living and was paid in cash. I'm quite certain he had at least $5-10k in cash sitting somewhere at home. Think about all the undocumented workers in this country who don't have bank accounts.

[johnbrickner]

. . . finding like minded people you can trust who bring something to the table, etc . . .

Spot on. I can only add "in a resilient community" to the above.

[johnbrickner]

I've seen these surveys a number of times and feel they strongly exaggerate the plight of people in this country. I'd be surprised if the real number was even 10%.

I'm not so sure it's an exaggeration. I spend a significant amount of time with those who work in the trenches here in upstate NY. A huge percentage living paycheck to paycheck since the "great recession", If they still had a job. Wages here are stagnant as he(double toothpicks) and have been for over a decade. My personal just approved salary increase was 2.8%. Not bad you say as it appears to outperform official inflation?

This is for the next three years! Or less than 1%/year, now cast in stone. So I'm going backwards but have prepared well for it. Continued "living austerity" I call it for me and my family. Just means tightening the belt notch a little more. Those folks in the trenches who are making about half of my personal salary are living what I call "lives of quiet desperation". Can't afford not to work or not have the 2nd paycheck, no emergency fund, no "real" retirement planned, and most of the time having nothing left over after paying their bills. Literally, hand-to-mouth.

If your household is making a little over $100,000/year you are in the top 10% and one of the elite. Tell me, if you are one of those who are making a little over $100,K and have two children or more do you feel like you are one of the elite?

I don't.

Were It not for living austerity the quality of my children's' current life experience and future life would be seriously impaired.

Now maybe it's just the situation here in the rustbelt of upstate NY and things are different in other parts of the country so my vision is limited. But, my nephew who manages real estate in Buffalo (and more elite than my household,) NY calls it the armpit of America. I think the number is hugely more than 10% as mentioned above.

[Recyclersteve]

Arguably, the higher population/higher cost areas skew the numbers, but it is hard for me to imagine a lot of people in New York City or San Francisco not being able to come up with $500 in an emergency. Also, the survey apparently mentioned getting $500 in case of an emergency. I didn't see anywhere that excluded those who could borrow from their parents or sell something of value at a pawn shop. And of course it doesn't cover the roughly 20% of Americans (not sure how they arrive at that number) who don't have bank accounts. Also, there are those whose outward appearance makes them look broke, but whom hide their wealth. I remember reading about a homeless guy recently who died and afterwards they discovered he had well over $2 million! And there are those who don't trust the government or banks (maybe including a few on this site) and keep their wealth at home or in a storage locker. So I am still skeptical. I'm gonna see if I could create a survey on this site to see what the response rate is. Stay tuned....

[Morsecode]

My first silver purchase was back in '81. A Crown Mint 100 oz. polished bar from Norlin Precious Metals somewheres in Washington state (I want to say Port Arthur?) Beautiful thing it was. Paid for it on a 10 month layaway plan they advertised in Numismatic News. Followed that up with a 50 oz bar. Later traded them both for a pound of seedless ganja, but that's not why I brought this up.

It was at the tail end of the Hunt Bros. deal and silver was in the headlines. Spot had collapsed to (I think) $14 or so and everyone was sure another spike was looming. I figured, 'why not? It's only two months pay'. My bride was not thrilled. I even got a decent safe to keep them in.

Followed that up with some 90% from a local flea market. In '91 I bought a Suisse Credit kilo of gold from Gaithersburg. That was too cool. I had eagles, 1 oz & 1/10th oz. I bought $1000 box of 40%. Bunch of numi stuff. Picked up an Unc $1000 fed reserve note just for fun.

I never did what I thought I would do with this stuff. Actually, I never really had a plan beyond accumulating. It all disappeared over time...a gun here, new car there. Some high maintenance girlfriend to impress. And just when silver was cruising the bottom and I was flush with cash, I couldn't be bothered with metal. I was sophisticated by now...in the stock market. Yay!

Point is, of course, I wish to hell I had it all back despite the 35 years of up and down rollercoaster. If only my empty safe could talk.

(well, ok it's filling up a little lately. Shhhh...)

[chris6084]

Arguably, the higher population/higher cost areas skew the numbers, but it is hard for me to imagine a lot of people in New York City or San Francisco not being able to come up with $500 in an emergency. Also, the survey apparently mentioned getting $500 in case of an emergency. I didn't see anywhere that excluded those who could borrow from their parents or sell something of value at a pawn shop. And of course it doesn't cover the roughly 20% of Americans (not sure how they arrive at that number) who don't have bank accounts. Also, there are those whose outward appearance makes them look broke, but whom hide their wealth. I remember reading about a homeless guy recently who died and afterwards they discovered he had well over $2 million! And there are those who don't trust the government or banks (maybe including a few on this site) and keep their wealth at home or in a storage locker. So I am still skeptical. I'm gonna see if I could creat a survey on this site to see what the response rate is. Stay tuned....

Good point about people in SF or NYC. I'd imagine most in those cities could come up with $500 without an issue. But I bet few have 3 months expenses worth of emergency cash on hand. If you're paying $3000+ a month in rent plus the high cost of everything else, 3 months of expenses is quite a large chunk of cash to have. Just a few months ago, the Department of Housing and Urban Development said an income of $105,350 for a family of 4 in San Francisco is considered low income. So, in SF, you can qualify for some government assistance while having a six figure salary job. Just about anywhere else in the country that would be considered well off.

[Recyclersteve]

Arguably, the higher population/higher cost areas skew the numbers, but it is hard for me to imagine a lot of people in New York City or San Francisco not being able to come up with $500 in an emergency. Also, the survey apparently mentioned getting $500 in case of an emergency. I didn't see anywhere that excluded those who could borrow from their parents or sell something of value at a pawn shop. And of course it doesn't cover the roughly 20% of Americans (not sure how they arrive at that number) who don't have bank accounts. Also, there are those whose outward appearance makes them look broke, but whom hide their wealth. I remember reading about a homeless guy recently who died and afterwards they discovered he had well over $2 million! And there are those who don't trust the government or banks (maybe including a few on this site) and keep their wealth at home or in a storage locker. So I am still skeptical. I'm gonna see if I could creat a survey on this site to see what the response rate is. Stay tuned....

Survey added- it asks about whether you could come up with $500 in an emergency. Please respond to the survey if you haven't already. Thx.

[everything]

NO WAY will the $100 bill ever go away, that would be like inviting the collapse of the dollar. Drugs are completely necessary, politicians, doctors, lawyers, movie stars, kingpins, CEO's, etc. they need their snort.

I definitely keep some cash in the SDB, it's like my own personal ATM, in case the power goes out, or the ATM stops working for whatever reason. I set a silver goal, that's done, now it's only gold from here on out, except well, uh, maybe just a little more. If a recession came along the price collapsed, I'd probably be clamoring for more.

I didn't stack away some PM's to make money, it was put away to get rid of money. Sure, I could pay off some debts with the stack, but why would I want to pay off dollar denominated debts, the whole reason behind owing money is to either buy stuff now & pay later, or short the dollar, or never pay it back, which many don't!

Take the federal government, does it appear that they are intending on paying back the money they borrow, they are shorting the dollar big time, they actually want inflation as well. Another reason to keep some hard diversified assets in tow.

[TXSTARFIRE]

In the case of a power outage I'm not sure that a SDB is the best place to have your cash.

[Recyclersteve]

In the case of a power outage I'm not sure that a SDB is the best place to have your cash.

I agree. Even the term "safe" deposit box is a misnomer. Contents are NOT insured by the bank and can be confiscated. You can't get at your cash if a bank holiday is declared in response to a Black Swan event. It is a misnomer right up there with the "Affordable Care Act."

I'd much rather keep cash with a publicly traded storage company like U-Haul, Public Storage, etc.

[InfleXion]

Essentially all markets are scams. There is always someone looking for a greater fool to flip a profit to. It's not about exchange of goods and services. It's about getting something for nothing.

This should cause optimism, not pessimism for precious metals. They are one of the few things that will be safe when the scam stops working. If you believe the scam will work forever, why stack in the first place?

All the pessimism is making me want to stack s'more, but my allowance is already being spent on Magic cards. Pretty decent investment, and if not, still fun to play and a cool thing to leave to someone.

[68Camaro]

Essentially all markets are scams. There is always someone looking for a greater fool to flip a profit to. It's not about exchange of goods and services. It's about getting something for nothing.

This should cause optimism, not pessimism for precious metals. They are one of the few things that will be safe when the scam stops working. If you believe the scam will work forever, why stack in the first place?

All the pessimism is making me want to stack s'more, but my allowance is already being spent on Magic cards. Pretty decent investment, and if not, still fun to play and a cool thing to leave to someone.

Well reasoned and written post, as usual. Since you took a detour and mentioned them, and I somehow had never heard of Magic cards - I just looked them up. That's an entire world that I didn't know existed!

[johnbrickner]

Well reasoned and written post, as usual. Since you took a detour and mentioned them, and I somehow had never heard of Magic cards - I just looked them up. That's an entire world that I didn't know existed!

I'm an avid strategic war gamer (from cast scale, to Avalon Hill, to computerized, and now not so thrilled with online). I was at a "gamers" conference in LA at least a couple of decades ago and in between battles I took a break to watch some "kids" playing a new card game. It was Magic the Gathering. I watched for an hour to get the gist of the game. My conclusion was it wouldn't last more than a year or two though I liked the art work and told them so.

I couldn't have been more wrong. Except for the artwork.

[frugi]

I like functional silver.... in that I like silver that I can eat with, and drink with, and serve food off of, put a candle in to light the night....that way it will always serve a purpose. I also somewhat like US 90% silver as an investment, but I dont actively seek it out for purchase anymore.

I prefer junk. cheaper the better. when I say junk I am not talking about silver, I am talking about outright crap and junk from garage sales or even someones trash on the curb, or out of the alley.... broken stuff, misc garbage... this has the best potential for me, I can usually get it free, or for close to nothing, and anything I sell it for is usually straight profit. In addition it is nearly risk free, and if I decide it isnt for me I can always throw it back where I found it....

it may sound strange, but where I live in the midwest USA (Saint Louis, MO), the people around here prefer to buy only two types of things.... either very expensive trendy stuff, or outright complete garbage with no expectation of producing a profit from the initial investment.

People would rather buy a crappy dresser from IKEA than a antique solid oak dresser from an antique store at the same price. However, those same people if given a choice are also very likely to buy a particle board dresser with a couple handles missing for $50.00 at a garage sale, because they are idiots, and they say they dont care.

This goes across the board for just about everything I come across in the resale, second hand market. Whether it is a set of antique German porcelain dinnerware, or marinara sauce stained Tupperware.

This all brings me to my point about silver. We (all of us realcenters) are all here due to a common element common to humans, and US midwesterners as well, we like deals, and we like cheap stuff.......

The deal with silver is several fold, but mostly it is cheap, undervalued, and has the most potential to gain versus gold or any other precious metal.

The cost to jump in to silver investing is very little, compared to gold for example, and with silver you get a bunch more of it to hold in your hand than gold for the same amount of money spent.

All of this makes sense to me because I am a realcenter. I like one cent copper coins, I like cheap deals.

I cant think of anything more exciting than receiving 100 95% pure copper discs in exchange for a worthless $1.00 bill.

We all like deals. Copper pennies that can be bought for $0.01 are a deal.

Silver that can be bought cheap is a deal. Why not hold it?

I expect to hold it until the very end, perhaps pass it to my loved ones, or sell it when the time is right, but it isnt about the investment to turn a profit for myself, it is more about the thrill of the chase of finding a sterling fork or spoon at a garage sale for a quarter, and taking it home polishing it up and eating lunch with it.

What a deal!!!

[Recyclersteve]

Hey Frugi: What type of silver is left out by the curb?

[frugi]

Hey Frugi: What type of silver is left out by the curb?

I haven't found much silver in the garbage

I have found cash though inside clothing, books, bibles, etc.. and in couches I have found gold rings and gold chains and pocket change.... anytime I see a couch on a curb I get out and search under the cushion, but you must be really careful as they also sometimes have syringes in them....

[Recyclersteve]

Good point on the syringes- I never would have thought of that! Also, I never would have thought to check the cushions- I've seen tons of sofas by the curb and never once thought to look!

[silverflake]

frugi's thoughts on people buying cheap vs. expensive (quality?) are poignant (mass produced ikea dresser vs antique oak as in his example). I am similar in that I like bargains but I sometimes am too cheap for my own good (read: you get what you pay for). With that in mind, I would relate this to my experience with silver of late. I have touched on this a bit in other posts but here's a bit more.

For most of the last 15 years I have been buying "cheap" silver - junk 90% or low premium bullion. However of late, I have become tired of it. No, I am not selling it nor have my beliefs of silver being an instrument of tangible value changed. But I have recently used my hard earned currency to purchase some graded MS65 Peace dollars and Morgan dollars. Generic, yes but beautiful. I have a MS61 $2.50 Indian Head Gold 1/4 eagle heading my way now too. Investment potential? Hmmm, not so sure. Bang for buck? Can't say that either. But, does it tickle my pickle? At this point, yes, it does for some reason. Maybe after a while of buying in this vain I will bore of this too and get back to "stacking cheap silver". But for now, I am content. They are nice to look at though I need to make sure not to make them some kind of idol. They will be nice to hand down to the boys (and yes, they understand gold and silver more than most teens in this day and age). And my "stack" is still here by the way.

They are quality, old, iconic coins that carry historical and art value. I think they will become more important as a reflection of our past monetary history and cultural history as time goes on. Much more so than silver American Eagle bullion coins or even the mass produced commemorative coins the Mint pumps out. Hey, it's my current itch. I am just scratching it.

My two cents again.

Keep stacking though.

[Recyclersteve]

Silverflake: I get what you are saying.

When we start out we might focus on something because it is the only thing we can afford (I.e., pennies for very young collectors) or it offers the best bang for the buck (in this case 90% silver would technically be a better buy than silver dollars) or it just looks good (lots of different opinions here, although it does seem there are many who prefer Morgan dollars to Peace dollars).

Then one day something changes. We get a job where we can finally save a decent amount of money and can afford to buy better quality, more expensive coins (a great example here is the beautiful $20 St. Gaudens gold coins). A friend who is gung ho about something may persuade us to get more active with something we previously shunned (for me, that's how I became interested in silver American Eagles- before I started buying them I was concerned about the high premiums above melt). Maybe we see a really nice display at a coin show or dealer (I remember seeing a complete set of "V" nickels in XF/AU that looked just stunning. I asked the dealer what it was about that set that made it look so good and he said it was hard to put together a set like that because each coin had full sharp stars on the obverse (very sharply struck- difficult for a metal as hard as nickel is), which is EXTREMELY hard to find. I've tried for decades and am still missing about 7-8 dates).

As they say, variety is the spice of life.

[johnbrickner]

I've seen these surveys a number of times and feel they strongly exaggerate the plight of people in this country. I'd be surprised if the real number was even 10%.

I'm not so sure it's an exaggeration. I spend a significant amount of time with those who work in the trenches here in upstate NY. A huge percentage living paycheck to paycheck since the "great recession", If they still had a job. Wages here are stagnant as he(double toothpicks) and have been for over a decade. My personal just approved salary increase was 2.8%. Not bad you say as it appears to outperform official inflation?

This is for the next three years! Or less than 1%/year, now cast in stone. So I'm going backwards but have prepared well for it. Continued "living austerity" I call it for me and my family. Just means tightening the belt notch a little more. Those folks in the trenches who are making about half of my personal salary are living what I call "lives of quiet desperation". Can't afford not to work or not have the 2nd paycheck, no emergency fund, no "real" retirement planned, and most of the time having nothing left over after paying their bills. Literally, hand-to-mouth.

If your household is making a little over $100,000/year you are in the top 10% and one of the elite. Tell me, if you are one of those who are making a little over $100,K and have two children or more do you feel like you are one of the elite? <snip>

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans- ... -paycheck/

Exactly what I'm talking about.

[Recyclersteve]

I still think there is a bias in the CBS survey. I think about the tendency for young people, for instance, to tell their parents they are really broke (even when they aren't) to get some money from the sympathetic parents.

Also, I think we should openly question the methodology mentioned in the article. Consider these claims made in the article:

1. Almost 50% of those earning < $50k/yr. are living paycheck to paycheck;
2. About 28% of those earning $50-100k/yr. are living paycheck to paycheck.
3. Overall almost 80% of people living paycheck to paycheck.

Look closely at the three statements above. How in the world is it even possible that all three could be true? I'm thinking that the person who wrote the article might have actually added 50% to 28% to come up with the "almost 80%" statement, which is flawed methodology.

Also, they aren't defining what living paycheck to paycheck is. It would be helpful if they had a specific definition for this.

[silverflake]

I personally know a couple who make a combined $250,000 but have >$200,000 in student loans, matching Lexus' and a McMansion. They are not living. They are surviving. They are enslaved. They are not even 30 years old yet.

I just don't get it.

Stack!

[InfleXion]

Most people I know are paycheck to paycheck type folks, a good portion for sure. That might be more a reflection on me, but what I perceive is that they all have vices they prioritize over planning for the future. Even two income households in some cases. I don't think it's about how much you make as it is how self sufficient you are, how well you adapt, what kind of fundamental skills you can use to improve your lot outside your profession. It's called living within your means. For some, there will never be enough money. Others will make it happen no matter the circumstances. Perseverance, not as common as it was with older generations whose survival depended upon it. Everybody used to know how to build a house. Socialism has taken its toll by removing incentive to thrive. The positive spin is that the rat race is a lot easier than it once was. So many slow rats.

[68Camaro]

Most people I know are paycheck to paycheck type folks, a good portion for sure. That might be more a reflection on me, but what I perceive is that they all have vices they prioritize over planning for the future. Even two income households in some cases. I don't think it's about how much you make as it is how self sufficient you are, how well you adapt, what kind of fundamental skills you can use to improve your lot outside your profession. It's called living within your means. For some, there will never be enough money. Others will make it happen no matter the circumstances. Perseverance, not as common as it was with older generations whose survival depended upon it. Everybody used to know how to build a house. Socialism has taken its toll by removing incentive to thrive. The positive spin is that the rat race is a lot easier than it once was. So many slow rats.

+1

The sentiments have been expressed here before, but this is as good a summary as any. The last several sentences are something my wife and I comment on all the time. Or expressed another way, the bar just gets set lower and lower. It takes so little for someone to excel these days relative to their "peer" group. In most of the maintenance/repair trades (electrician, plumber, carpenter, A/C repair, etc) you just have to know the basics of your business, show some respect to your customers by being neat, clean (relative to the job), showing up on time, finishing the job, and not stealing something while you are there. Do those things and (as a rule) you'll have so much business you don't even need to advertise.