Trump Tariff Thread

[Thogey]

January 2018 - Washing machines and solar panels, 30% - 50%
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sams ... SKBN1F1254

I think this is saying tariffs were used to seal this deal

If the United States decides to take action to “lock in” Samsung’s commitment, tariffs recommended by the ITC that will “facilitate Samsung’s transition from importer to domestic producer” should be chosen, Herrington said, citing the ITC, according to a Samsung statement.

The plant, Samsung’s first U.S. appliances factory in more than three decades, was among a long list of investment pledges by global companies reacting to pressure from Trump to create more U.S. jobs.

https://www.bizvibe.com/top-listings/wa ... ers-in-usa

We'll have to see if the prices get so expensive because of this that nate is going to have to walk around in dirty clothes.

[natsb88]

January 2018 - Washing machines and solar panels, 30% - 50%
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sams ... SKBN1F1254

I think this is saying tariffs were used to seal this deal

If the United States decides to take action to “lock in” Samsung’s commitment, tariffs recommended by the ITC that will “facilitate Samsung’s transition from importer to domestic producer” should be chosen, Herrington said, citing the ITC, according to a Samsung statement.

The plant, Samsung’s first U.S. appliances factory in more than three decades, was among a long list of investment pledges by global companies reacting to pressure from Trump to create more U.S. jobs.

https://www.bizvibe.com/top-listings/wa ... ers-in-usa

We'll have to see if the prices get so expensive because of this that nate is going to have to walk around in dirty clothes.

So the executive branch of the United States federal government should be deciding which private corporations are winners and losers? We should formulate trade policy to benefit specific companies, the ones who can best schmooze Washington? Weren't we against TARP, the automaker and bank and insurance bailouts, Solyndra and all that?

I suspect that if Obama had proposed these exact same tariff policies, you guys would be throwing a fit. I'm looking at the merit of the policies without putting any extra faith in expected future "4d chess" or trade deal negotiation. The policy, on its own legs, is bad. This is too much power in too few hands and meddling in the markets on this scale rarely benefits the little guy.

[Thogey]

Is the tariff on a specific company or on foreign imports, and what's 4d chess?

Is the tariff forcing Americans to give up part of their income to redistribute to specific companies?

Dude it's just an article I found and Obama didn't do it. Is that a strawman argument? Is it better that the exploding washing machine market benefits foreign countries or the US?
If Obama's meddling was intended to prop up the US against the rest of the world I would be for it.

[Thogey]

Yes I hope Trump picks winners and losers. Because he wants the USA to win he wants us to prosper. He might make mistakes. He is not killing people with tariffs.

[natsb88]

China is deep into a trade war. We would be silly to ignore it. The fact they make 10 bucks a day in a global market isnt just a "so?" proposition if we want to leave a country as good or close to the current one to our kids.

How does China producing affordable goods for the global market make America a worse country for your kids? I mean, I understand the frustration of low quality disposable appliances and tools and whatnot, but there are higher quality options out there too. Free markets make those options and choices possible. Nearly every household in America, regardless of income, has a refrigerator and a microwave. Most have multiple TVs and internet access, almost everybody who wants one has a smart phone in their pocket. That wasn't true just a decade or two ago and it wouldn't be true now if we had walled off trade the way Trump is now.

the only thing they have on us is rare earth metals and many other places including here can ramp up production if need be.

No, they have affordable manual labor. It won't always be as cheap as it is now. In fact Chinese labor costs have multiplied a few times in the last decade already. Wages are rising, the poorest are becoming less poor, and the middle class quality of life is improving. They want healthcare and savings and better working environments, and they are slowly getting them. You sometimes hint at the tariffs being almost a humanitarian effort for the "slaves" in China, yet the tariffs will hurt those workers, not help them. A low-paying job is better than no job. It's like a $15 minimum wage here cutting the bottom rungs off the ladder.

I think you got it all wrong Nate. I mean your right in much of how it plays out but wrong imo in deciding whether this is desirable or not.

So the tariffs on China will kill thousands of small businesses in America and overall more American jobs than they save, and will raise the cost of consumer goods across the board without a corresponding increase in average wages, both resulting in less buying power for Americans, but this is still desirable because...why, exactly? Is it an ego thing? We need to show China who's boss? Do you fear that China has established themselves as the manufacturing center of the world just so they can suddenly someday stop selling us all goods in some sort of actual economic war, tanking their own economy in the process?

If we cant win a trade war? Its best to figure it out while we can still stand as I see it. Out of all the things Trump has done I love the trade wars most. I want to see a decent nation for my kids.

This is definitely a Boomer perspective It's much easier for those with an established household to say "sure, let's arbitrarily make things more expensive, throw this risky idea at the wall and see if it somehow sticks and brings manufacturing back, I personally don't need to buy much anyway."

[Thogey]

Ladies and gentlemen nate's position is not that tariffs won't work. It is that he does not agree with the Trump's goal. Therefore it's like arguing with your wife. The argument becomes circular because you don't see the world the same way.

If one didn't care whether Japan wins or how many GIs had to die winning then the Enola Gay was on a mission that could not be successful.

This thread by design is not about if tariffs are successful it is about is Trump's goal a worthy one, and I fell for it.

[natsb88]

Serious questions for the pro-tariff guys: Do you have any first-hand experience in starting/owning a manufacturing or manufacturing related business? Or being in a management position in such a company where you could see all of the financials? Have you ever had to source materials and/or components for manufacturing applications? Have you done cost and quality comparisons on imported versus US-made materials and/or components, and how they affect the price point and value and viability of the finished product? Have you ever been responsible for making payroll in an industry that is or will be taking a hit from these tariffs?

I'm not trying to be condescending, though it might sound that way. I'm just trying to learn more about the perspective you guys have on this issue. It's obvious that we are seeing things in a different light, and I want to try to better understand where you are coming from.

I've grown up in a small family business that deals with this stuff. Up until my early 20s I shared much of the "buy US made" and "China is stealing our jobs" and "everything made in China is cheap junk" mentality that you guys are displaying here. But the more I got involved, the more I knew about and became responsible for the numbers, the more domestic companies and manufacturers I work with, the more I see how many US jobs rely upon Chinese products and manufacturing, the more I see the glaring flaws in these overly simplistic sentiments.

Keep in mind that I've sunk a bunch of my own time and money into a website dedicated to battling Chinese-made counterfeit coins and bullion, have run into issues with counterfeits / intellectual property in other areas, and have to compete directly with China for a large segment of our family business. I'm not under any illusion that China is an angel, or even that China generally plays by the rules (they don't). But I deal with all that and still believe the tariffs are poor (and damaging) policy.

[natsb88]

Ladies and gentlemen nate's position is not that tariffs won't work. It is that he does not agree with the Trump's goal.

Completely incorrect. I would very much like to see more manufacturing move back to the states. I do not think tariffs are an effective way to do it, I do not believe it is Trump's prerogative to implement them, and I believe the collateral damage will far outweigh any benefit, both short term and long term.

The argument becomes circular because you don't see the world the same way.

That's what I'm getting at with the post above.

[Treetop]

I suspect that if Obama had proposed these exact same tariff policies, you guys would be throwing a fit. I'm looking at the merit of the policies without putting any extra faith in expected future "4d chess" or trade deal negotiation. The policy, on its own legs, is bad. This is too much power in too few hands and meddling in the markets on this scale rarely benefits the little guy.

Id have loved if Obama did this. I didnt like Obamas solar panel tarrif at all because it was only hitting china instead of all the nations cheap labor and low enviro control panels came from.

. I had a response for each point you made but I dont want to go there. I see this part basically exactly opposite of you though. This isnt arbitrary for one thing. There is nothing risky here, systemwide anyway. The US is ALREADY considered the most protected market on earth. China and many others are up there as well. Im aware of ZERO nations that got to a wealth level comparable to the western world that didnt use major protectionism in one way or another. It is never a perfect thing of course but it gives a major buffer.

I really dont have the heart to debate it in depth atm though. You got most of the points I made very wrong though which I find odd since we debated it a bit during the 2016 election. I will say though Ive read in depth for instance about how the IMF used debt to manipulate various countries. In doing that it became obvious protected economies with stable government and such did many multiples better then those without it.

Bottom line I am 100% behind what appears to be Trumps mindset. Freer trade then ever with nations that have similar quality of life and enviro controls as the US, and protected trade with the nations that have little to no enviro controls and much lower wages. Ive thought the same since I first heard the concept in the 90s. Everything Ive read since on related topics reinforces this mindset for me. From historical issues going back millennia to examples from this last century. It provides a more stable sustainable out come.

LOL also the boomer generation is well before my time. My parents were born at the end of it.

[Thogey]

Serious questions for the pro-tariff guys: Do you have any first-hand experience in starting/owning a manufacturing or manufacturing related business? Or being in a management position in such a company where you could see all of the financials? Have you ever had to source materials and/or components for manufacturing applications? Have you done cost and quality comparisons on imported versus US-made materials and/or components, and how they affect the price point and value and viability of the finished product? Have you ever been responsible for making payroll in an industry that is or will be taking a hit from these tariffs?

I'm not trying to be condescending, though it might sound that way. I'm just trying to learn more about the perspective you guys have on this issue. It's obvious that we are seeing things in a different light, and I want to try to better understand where you are coming from.

I've grown up in a small family business that deals with this stuff. Up until my early 20s I shared much of the "buy US made" and "China is stealing our jobs" and "everything made in China is cheap junk" mentality that you guys are displaying here. But the more I got involved, the more I knew about and became responsible for the numbers, the more domestic companies and manufacturers I work with, the more I see how many US jobs rely upon Chinese products and manufacturing, the more I see the glaring flaws in these overly simplistic sentiments.

Keep in mind that I've sunk a bunch of my own time and money into a website dedicated to battling Chinese-made counterfeit coins and bullion, have run into issues with counterfeits / intellectual property in other areas, and have to compete directly with China for a large segment of our family business. I'm not under any illusion that China is an angel, or even that China generally plays by the rules (they don't). But I deal with all that and still believe the tariffs are poor (and damaging) policy.

Why would you think you are being condescending? Your question is no biggie, totally valid. I've know a few people who do what you do.

After I left the Air Force where I spent my days helping ensure the safety and sovereignty of my country with 100% American made Minuteman III missiles.

I signed well over a million on the front side of paychecks. I have competed against cheap domestic illegal labor and payed thousands in payroll taxes and insurance where my competition did not. I've heard all the bitching and whining from them when e-verify came out. I charged more, and lost business because of it. Not to say I never cut corners, Cash was king!

this

Have you done cost and quality comparisons on imported versus US-made materials and/or components, and how they affect the price point and value and viability of the finished product?

is not brain surgery

I have never imported a dimes worth of chinese goods for resale. I tried to do a furniture deal in the mid 90's with a factory in Xian with another Chinese guy. But got disgusted, by the complete idiots I was dealing with, and pulled out.

Your perspective is obvious. You are benefiting from cheap Chinese manufacturing.
I'll write this again. No one is pro-tariff. Tariffs are a weapon, they are not an end. Guys like you will be hurt by them. Guys like me don't care if your margins drop. We want to see the USA become more self sufficient That might require changing things up and blowing out the portion of our economy that depends on $10 a day labor. We believe it can be done and we will be better off in the long term.

[Thogey]

Ladies and gentlemen nate's position is not that tariffs won't work. It is that he does not agree with the Trump's goal.

Completely incorrect. I would very much like to see more manufacturing move back to the states. I do not think tariffs are an effective way to do it, I do not believe it is Trump's prerogative to implement them, and I believe the collateral damage will far outweigh any benefit, both short term and long term.

I must have misunderstood this

How does China producing affordable goods for the global market make America a worse country for your kids? I mean, I understand the frustration of low quality disposable appliances and tools and whatnot, but there are higher quality options out there too. Free markets make those options and choices possible. Nearly every household in America, regardless of income, has a refrigerator and a microwave. Most have multiple TVs and internet access, almost everybody who wants one has a smart phone in their pocket. That wasn't true just a decade or two ago and it wouldn't be true now if we had walled off trade the way Trump is now.

And this

the more domestic companies and manufacturers I work with, the more I see how many US jobs rely upon Chinese products and manufacturing,

is the problem. God did not make this, it can be reversed.
Also, I really don't know what "4d chess" means. What is this?

[Treetop]

Im curious what other ways we should deal with China stealing intellectual property for instance and other things generally against the intent of the WTO if not Trumps method. Seems to me if he could get them to change that alone it would very possibly have a large effect. If we cant get them to respect intellectual property why not just move on to cheap labor countries that do to fill the role china does atm? This is why I had said china only has one real thing over us (rare earth metals) from what I know, because plenty of other nations have cheap labor if we really need to use that just to get by as some feel.

[68Camaro]

Mostly staying out of this exercise in debate thread but on the rare earth comment, while China has a large reserve, the US actually has most if not all of what it needs, if it came to absolute need - just not as cost effectively as China's supply. So China loves to let the prices crash to kill any domestic incentives to mine locally. One Federal program that I would support is the stockpiling of domestic rare minerals at a negotitated real production cost, for the purpoze of maintaining our independence.

[Treetop]

Mostly staying out of this exercise in debate thread

I guess one could call it that, but anyone who supports Trump was made fun of and belittled before any of us even commented.

[68Camaro]

I would very much like to see more manufacturing move back to the states. I do not think tariffs are an effective way to do it, I do not believe it is Trump's prerogative to implement them, and I believe the collateral damage will far outweigh any benefit, both short term and long term.

Ok. I disagree but there isn't much to debate. It either will work or it won't. What in your opinion is a more effective way to level the playing field?

[Thogey]

Mostly staying out of this exercise in debate thread

I guess one could call it that, but anyone who supports Trump was made fun of and belittled before any of us even commented.

It is impossible to belittle Trump supporters. It's like standing in a river and pissing upstream.

[natsb88]

Ladies and gentlemen nate's position is not that tariffs won't work. It is that he does not agree with the Trump's goal.

Completely incorrect. I would very much like to see more manufacturing move back to the states. I do not think tariffs are an effective way to do it, I do not believe it is Trump's prerogative to implement them, and I believe the collateral damage will far outweigh any benefit, both short term and long term.

I must have misunderstood this

How does China producing affordable goods for the global market make America a worse country for your kids? I mean, I understand the frustration of low quality disposable appliances and tools and whatnot, but there are higher quality options out there too. Free markets make those options and choices possible. Nearly every household in America, regardless of income, has a refrigerator and a microwave. Most have multiple TVs and internet access, almost everybody who wants one has a smart phone in their pocket. That wasn't true just a decade or two ago and it wouldn't be true now if we had walled off trade the way Trump is now.

One can desire to have more domestic manufacturing while also recognizing the benefits we (the entire country, which includes you) reap from international trade. That has primarily been China for a couple decades now. Taiwan and Japan before that. China is an easy scapegoat. It makes many Americans feel all patriotic to say "yeah, screw China, make America great (at manufacturing) again." But that's a woefully oversimplified sentiment.

And this

the more domestic companies and manufacturers I work with, the more I see how many US jobs rely upon Chinese products and manufacturing,

is the problem. God did not make this, it can be reversed.

Again, it's not that simple. As I tried to explain before, there simply is no meaningful market for entirely American-made products in a lot of market segments. It's not that people will have to save up and pay a little more, it's that the price would be many times what it is today, and there simply aren't enough buyers for many discretionary / recreational / hobby products at that price level to sustain an American manufacturer. So we either continue to capitalize on the opportunity to have small American companies supporting some American jobs with a mix of overseas materials/manufacturing, or we price those American companies out of the market completely through tariffs, lose those jobs, and have only foreign products in the market.

One of our customers recently shopped around for a small screw used in one of their assemblies. They buy tens of thousands at a time. They pay about $0.06 a piece from a Chinese supplier. The best price they could get from a US manufacturer was ~$0.63 a piece. They did the math on making their entire product here. The current product is a mix of US-made and Chinese-made components with final decorating, assembly, and packaging in China. The list price now is $299 and they usually retail for 10% - 20% below that. To make these entirely in the US, the list price would have to go to at least $799. There is no market for them at $799. So they either continue the business this way, keep directly employing a couple dozen people here, keep contributing to the local economy through their rent and employment and use of local services, and help keep many dozens of physical and online retailers in business who distribute their products. Or we jack up their cost of doing business, price them out of the market, all that goes away, and people buy entirely foreign products or leave the hobby. That's what the tariffs do to thousands of small companies, in favor of a very small group of connected large corporations.

Also, I really don't know what "4d chess" means. What is this?

"4D Chess" originated among an online pro-Trump group, I think first referring to the campaign/media strategy, which made sense. He was getting (and seeking) lots of negative attention, but it kept his opponents off the air, and ultimately played a significant role in his nomination. His team played the media. All the [manufactured] controversies and inflammatory remarks worked to his advantage. It was "4d chess." Then it grew into explaining Trump actions/policies that seemingly contradicted his stated goals and campaign promises, but that supporters claim are really genius strategy moves setting up some bigger master plan.

He got the NRA's endorsement and claims to be the pro-gun candidate but then supports a bunch of gun control measures. Oh, he's not really for gun control, he's just playing 4D chess. Don't worry, he's a genius!

He said we should get out of the Middle East and it would be a huge mistake to get more involved in Syria, but then gets more involved in Syria. Oh, he's not really getting more involved in Syria, he's just playing 4D chess. It's all part of his plan!

He promised to build the wall and make Mexico pay for it. Mexico refused and Trump shifted to using a tax on imports from Mexico to pay for it. A tax on Americans, not Mexicans. But it's all part of 4D chess!

Trump is going to drain the swamp! He then fills his cabinet with swamp creatures and sets up a revolving door of Washington insiders and connected friends for nearly all appointed positions. But don't worry, it's all part of the plan to make America great again. He's on another level that mere mortals can't understand, he's playing 4D chess!

A couple years later and it's now more often used tongue-in-cheek to poke fun at the type of diehard Trump supporters who refuse to acknowledge any mistakes or shortcomings. The largest federal deficit in six years? That's just 5D chess! Etc. Not that we really have those here at Realcent, but there are a lot of them elsewhere.

Mostly staying out of this exercise in debate thread

I guess one could call it that, but anyone who supports Trump was made fun of and belittled before any of us even commented.

It is impossible to belittle Trump supporters. It's like standing in a river and pissing upstream.

Not my intention to belittle Trump supporters. I don't think the Trump supporters here are the type who think he is really an infallible super genius anyway. Besides, this is an economic / trade policy issue. I would be opposed to and pointing out the objective flaws in this strategy whether it was Trump or Obama or Hillary or Bush or Romney or whoever. Trump just happens to be the one implementing them.

And just like Obama supporters did when criticizing any Obama policies, some Trump supporters try to make it about their politician of choice instead of the policy. Criticize an Obama policy and you were a right wing extremist / racist. Criticize a Trump policy and you are a globalist / America hater / snowflake. I always get a chuckle out of Trump supporters here implying I'm some sort of lefty while pretty much all other social media thinks I'm a borderline alt-right Trump supporter

[Treetop]

One can desire to have more domestic manufacturing while also recognizing the benefits we (the entire country, which includes you) reap from international trade. That has primarily been China for a couple decades now. Taiwan and Japan before that. China is an easy scapegoat. It makes many Americans feel all patriotic to say "yeah, screw China, make America great (at manufacturing) again." But that's a woefully oversimplified sentiment.

I found this woefully oversimplified myself.

[natsb88]

I would very much like to see more manufacturing move back to the states. I do not think tariffs are an effective way to do it, I do not believe it is Trump's prerogative to implement them, and I believe the collateral damage will far outweigh any benefit, both short term and long term.

Ok. I disagree but there isn't much to debate. It either will work or it won't. What in your opinion is a more effective way to level the playing field?

What I said earlier. Reduce the barriers and administrative burdens and costs to establishing/expanding businesses here. Government should not be trying to force manufacturing to locate here. It should be fostering an environment that is naturally attractive to manufacturing, and business in general.

Businesses here have to match payroll taxes, pay into unemployment, pay into worker's comp, pay per capita / occupational privilege taxes, pay corporate taxes, provide paid leave, have to deal with high local minimum wages and/or prevailing wages set by government-backed mobsters (unions), have to verify employees' citizenship status and collect and remit income taxes on their behalf, SCOTUS just decided that 10,000 sales tax jurisdictions can require remote sales tax collection and reporting, businesses have to research and comply with EPA, DEP, USDA, FDA, BATFE, USCB, OSHA, CPSC, EEOC, FTC, ICC, NLRB, BCP, and dozens of other unelected state and federal bureaucracies. Grow too big and then they have to pay for their employees' healthcare too. It shouldn't be any surprise that we can't broadly compete with China on manufacturing.

We can't control China's wages or government or environment. We can control all of the burdens listed above. We are our own worst enemy. Blaming the rest of the world is a cop-out.

I know an investment casting business that outsourced because used, dried out plaster of paris used to cast clean brass was reclassified as hazardous waste and cost more to dispose of than their entire annual sales

We'd like to expand our building to grow our business, and the cost of the construction itself would be viable. But not once you add in the permits, increased property taxes in perpetuity, being forced to update the existing building to ADA standards (even though we are not open to the public), and the fact that FEMA went through two years ago and changed the flood maps to put that part of our property in a flood zone. Plus we had to drop a sizable chunk of change this year to regrade the front part of the property and replace sidewalks after the state went through and changed the elevation of the road so the water couldn't drain out

[natsb88]

Your perspective is obvious. You are benefiting from cheap Chinese manufacturing.

So are you, even if you refuse to see it.

Guys like you will be hurt by them. Guys like me don't care if your margins drop.

Not much of my margins, but some of our customers. Not just drop, but go negative and out of business. Our small business is diverse enough to survive. We do work for a lot of other companies (like local food processors) that won't feel much from this. I'm not just thinking about what is best for me, I'm thinking about what is best for the economy and consumer as a whole. That doesn't always align with blanket nationalism.

We want to see the USA become more self sufficient That might require changing things up and blowing out the portion of our economy that depends on $10 a day labor. We believe it can be done and we will be better off in the long term.

I'd like to see the USA become more self-sufficient too. It's not "a portion" of our economy, it's interwoven into nearly all of it. This isn't the way to do it and we will only see minor concentrated benefits at the expense of the many.

[Treetop]

A few more questions.
Do we just ignore theft of intellectual property? One of our advantages is ideas in the global market. Without being the most protected market on earth what other industries deeply wooven into our society would be gone? Is it sometimes better to buffer a few key industries for domestic security?

[natsb88]

A few more questions.
Do we just ignore theft of intellectual property? One of our advantages is ideas in the global market.

I asked earlier how tariffs are supposed to protect intellectual property but didn't get a response. Whether or not intellectual property should (or even can) be protected by government is another tangent, but for this topic, how do the Trump tariffs protect it?

Without being the most protected market on earth what other industries deeply wooven into our society would be gone? Is it sometimes better to buffer a few key industries for domestic security?

I'm not really sure what you are asking. Do you consider tariffs on 6500+ categories of goods "a few key industries?"

The US did not become the largest economy in the world in under 150 years thanks to federal protectionism. The US economy thrived and grew so rapidly because it was a land of relative freedom from government controls and taxation, allowing entrepreneurs to innovate. Yes, some terrible things came out of that too. Slavery, dumping industrial waste into public waterways, dangerous working conditions...all very bad. But we've been over-correcting for nearly a century and have created a tedious, arduous, largely arbitrary system of bureaucracy that makes the US much less competitive than it could be. Fixing that requires peeling off layers of stifling government, not adding even more taxation and micromanagement to the economy. Promoting tariffs as a way to fix our trade deficit is akin to promoting more government intervention in the healthcare market as a way to fix our healthcare costs. Expanding the root of the problem isn't going to fix the problem.

[Tourney64]

Adding tariffs is a way of punishing China and making them change their practices of stealing our technology.

[Treetop]

The US did not become the largest economy in the world in under 150 years thanks to federal protectionism.

tourney answered the other question. As for this, I mean the US did become the biggest economy WHILE being the most protected. You can argue that protections didnt cause it yet Im aware of zero other nations that didnt use protectionism to become wealthy. We also did this in spite of said protectionism.

[Treetop]

Kept thinking of the thread and wanted to add something else. Nate, you listed a long list of things (regulations etc) that US business needs to content with, most of which isnt true for a place like china. One of my points has been the fact we have those differences is part of why I dont mind tariffs. Using it as a tool for other goals like maybe changing their policy on intellectual property is another. Are you of the opinion we should drop ALL of that? Workers comp... enviro protections... OSHA... uneployment benefits etc etc?? We could certainly do things cheaper if we did that. I even expect if we streamlined all these things we could probably get all the same things done with considerably less money. This is somewhat moot though because I would expect the majority support most of these things. As expensive as they are. Ive worked for people where I didnt have all those things, its okay when you live with your parents or whatever but most workers are going to want some protections built in as we have now. I have little doubt we could cover all those bases with less money if we tried and become more competitive but Im nearly positive the vast bulk of workers want most of these things.

So while all those things are easy to point to for cost savings, they are unlikely to ever be changed. Can we agree that is obvious? or no? Several libertarian mindsets are slowly becoming mainstream but not the idea the markets would solve all those types of issues. We probably have more americans who would vote for stalinism or marxism then that.