What have you done to prep today?

[Know Common Cents]

I just bought a food dehydrator. Plan to read the manual this weekend and try it out on some peaches, kiwi, carrots, bananas, etc. Should do the trick for me.

[Mossy]

Yes, I should have said cultivar rather than species, I said species specifically because the majority would understand it. I'm not looking to get into a big discussion about orchard plantings....

Understood. I had to go back and see what you wrote, then consider how someone was going to get Mountain Ash to pollinate an apple tree.

(Also, the way the "Endangered _Species_ Act" is actually enforced annoys my considerably.)

[Verbane]

Yes, I should have said cultivar rather than species, I said species specifically because the majority would understand it. I'm not looking to get into a big discussion about orchard plantings....

Understood. I had to go back and see what you wrote, then consider how someone was going to get Mountain Ash to pollinate an apple tree.

HEHEHE

[Nickelless]

I just bought a food dehydrator. Plan to read the manual this weekend and try it out on some peaches, kiwi, carrots, bananas, etc. Should do the trick for me.

What brand of dehydrator did you get, KCC? I know a little bit about dehydrators and food dehydration.

[Treetop]

this is a GREAT thread. I have a very similar outlook on things as you do nickelless.

Very happy to see folks thinking of fruit trees. Id like to interject some thoughts on that subject. There are fruits and nuts and berries that are productive and self managing (not that you cant help them along to your benefit, youll have to establish trees virtually anywhere though before you leave them be) for every region. for practicality along with the fact you might not have the choice into the future you might want to consider things that do not need sprayed.

It is going to be different for each area really. but peaches, apples, pears and many of our most common tree fruits can be tricky in many areas. i certainly wouldnt want to imply those arent good to get only that you dont want to rely on them. also find out your local diseases and pick varieties bred for them if you can.

You can however get things that simply have less issues. Plums are a top one there. Acorns as well for nuts. hordes of others, black walnuts, mulberries its different for each area really. But there are solid fruit and nut and berry choices for each area. More then one actually. how can you go wrong if its your land? Lots of these things you can go from seed rather cheaply,(though it takes more time, gotta start somewhere though. stone fruits like plums can produce in 7 years usually some nuts its 10 others it is indeed 25 but if you have the space its a prudent investment especially if you have kids) and be rather assured of results. Get creative. theres are WAY more tasty fruits and nuts then people generally consider. If you get a nice range of them you could in time have a solid source of nutrition. i can go through ways to better grow trees in harsher areas especially dry ones as i study this. But getting trees going can be rather passive as long as you ensure they get a good start in life.

There are also lesser known things (lots of them actually maybe i will start a thread sometime) but these ones are particularly interesting imo.... All super easy to grow and have great benefits.

:honey locust... this is a tree. It is nitrogen fixing, HUGE bonus!!! It grows fast and has huge "pods" with its seed in it. the pods themselves are 13 percent sugar. they can make an acceptable animal fodder in that state, and likely could use the sugar in a few ways if you played with it. The seeds in the pods are edible though not tasty. you need to roast them to use them like a bean substitute. again these are not ideal, BUT a few trees would yield in the worst of years in the worst of areas, and serve as a hedge. If the stores fail or your garden does, you have a survival bean. Also at about 10 years old in most areas this tree can be cut back as fire wood. a rather small patch can sustainably provide decent quality fuel. so theres a few possible uses all in one. drought no problem once established.

Siberian peashrub: This one is also nitrogen fixing. This one is more bushy, it also has pods. the seeds in the pods are much more desirable as a food then the honey locust. the are a bland bean basically. Its being studied as a source of quality cheap protein. seeds are 36 percent protein and being bland can be a good staple, as the tastes of other things tak it over. Like honey locust this can grow even on poors sites although this ones a bit picker. It NEEDS a cold winter to produce (i forget if its zone 6 or 7 but one of those is its warmest regione to grow) and it needs good drainage to. Drought no problem once established.

goumi, autumn olive, silverberry: these are all related plants- all nitrogen fixing. All productive and fast growing, even on poor soils. the berries on all of these are nutrient dense. a very under utilized plant. drought tolerant once established.

sea buckthorn. also nitrogen fixing nutrient dense, grows on poor sites, drought tolerant once established.

prickley pear cactus. these grow all the way up to the artic circle though rare in many areas. If you look youl find a variety for your area. this plant is a beast, the pads edible though not great. the fruits can be very tasty, the seed edible. where this plant shines though, is in how you can take pads and spread it very fast. ive got a nice patch going from nearly zero work. using space that otherwise wouldnt be used. and if I need it i have many pounds of fresh edibles literally any day of the year.....

Id like to share some thoughts on weeds as well.....

If you have some land consider seeking out "weeds". there are herbs, spices and edible greens for EVERY area of the country. So why not learn a bit about them and seed them if you have the space? you can take the thought in many directions depending on your needs. pulling undesirable weeds and planting onees that could be useful now or later. uses are endless from materials to build, medicines foods spices, attractors of beneficial things, it ges on and on.

heres another thought for the gardeners here. Weeds ARE part of the garden. true? are your weeds useful? Ive purposely planted useful weeds, and over time they have pushed out the non useful weeds. I always let a few of the useful ones go to seed when the end up in a spot that doesnt impede my other plants. and i always ruthlessly get all undesirable weeds before they set seed. so now i have to pull the same amount of weeds from my garden, but some are herbs, some are greens, some chickens or fish or cattle would eat... etc etc... generally they are better for compost and easier to pull then the weeds I happened to start with as well. so while you pull weeds you are collecting useful things as well. this isnt to say that you shouldnt or cant use mulches and other means to hinder weeds, but that wherever weeds are within your growing set up, they could be useful ones instead.

[Devil Soundwave]

Another good one to consider coudl be the sugar maple, which apparently grows quickly and the method of turning its sap into edible maple syrup seems fairly easy.

[Mossy]

Siberian peashrub: This one is also nitrogen fixing. This one is more bushy, it also has pods. the seeds in the pods are much more desirable as a food then the honey locust. the are a bland bean basically.

There's a poisoness plant that looks an awful lot like it, so be careful.

Another good one to consider coudl be the sugar maple, which apparently grows quickly and the method of turning its sap into edible maple syrup seems fairly easy.

All maples can produce sugar, AFAIK.

[involuntary tentacle]

Nickelless, is it possible to seal a mason jar full of say.. spices or dehydrated veggies with an oxygen absorber?
Or would the gaps in between each piece have too much air for it to create a vacuum?

[Mossy]

Nickelless, is it possible to seal a mason jar full of say.. spices or dehydrated veggies with an oxygen absorber?
Or would the gaps in between each piece have too much air for it to create a vacuum?

I'm not him, but I have canned. You might, if the gasket rubber is soft enough. Canning means heating, and the gasket nearly melts, making it conform to the mouth of the jar.

[Nickelless]

IT and Mossy, there's no need to use O2 absorbers with spices--the issue will be keeping the spices' flavor intact, not preserving the nutrients. I only use O2 absorbers with my dehydrated meats and larger bags of rice, beans and other bulk items. Just my two cents, but there's very little residual air in a quart-sized mason jar once you have it filled with dry items, and since oxygen is only 21 percent of the air volume, you really aren't gaining much of an advantage by adding oxygen absorbers in quart jars. Having said that, though, I've been using O2 absorbers for the meats I've dehydrated to keep any residual fat from turning rancid. And there's no need to use oxygen absorbers if you're already vacuum-sealing an item, because there will be almost no air in the container, and thus no oxygen. The vacuum seal will suffice.

The bottom line with regard to O2 absorbers and mason jars is that if you're only opening one jar of a certain item at a time, as you should be anyway (first-in, first-out), you'll be using the contents of that jar soon and no oxygen will be introduced into the jar until you open it for the first time. Just keep your jars in a cool, dark place and rotate them according to when they were canned and you should be fine.

Mossy, there's no heat involved with canning dry items. Just put the dry product in a mason jar, put the lid on it and stick it in your pantry. No heating is necessary for dry items because you don't need a vacuum seal as you do with wet items. There's no risk of botulism with dry items because you've removed all the water. Just keep your product dry and sealed and everything should be fine.

[justoneguy]

I use a vacuum sealer with a mason jar lid sealer on my mason jars that aren't heat canned.
same lid but a vacuum holds the lid very securely.
and way less oxegen in there.
i just opened a large can of dehydrated apples, and can only eat so many b4 they would go stale.
so i keep a quart out + vacuum seal the rest in mason jars.

[franklin]

"And if anyone is buying spam cheaper than $2.28 a can, please share your source."

IT:
Pursuant to your request, today's Kroger ads has a special on Spam, 50 cents off if you buy 10, bringing the cost per can to $1.68. They say their normal price was $2.18, of which I was unaware. Same 12 oz. can as always.

[Mossy]

Mossy, ... Just keep your product dry and sealed and everything should be fine.

So, a moisture absorber, dry rice, etc is a good idea for things that are to be kept dry.

(Now to find something to keep my dry rice dry I keep some on hand because it's fast and easy to reconstitute. Too bad it's so bulky.)

[coinking2005]

My weekend prep project was to install a 200 gal rain water collection system. Our storage shed did not have rain gutters so that was the first step to tackle. For right now I only installed spouting on one side of the storage building. After that was converting the large open top plastic tote (previously used to store dry bulk products) Similar to this...

The recycled tote was missing the lid so I just screwed on a piece of treated plywood to work for a lid.

I had to calculate how many gallons of water it will hold it's 3'X3'X3' which equals out to 27 cubic feet and that figures out to about 201 gallons which is a little over 1600 lbs. I think I better renforece it's foundation though.

Next up is planting the garden once the weather is right.

[Nickelless]

Coinking, I've been trying to figure out how to do something very similar. I already have a concrete space by one of the drainspouts, but it's part of a screened-in porch. But at least you're giving me an idea or two as to what I can do.

[tbram88]

Now that it is almost gardening season in OH. I purchased a bunch of Heirloom seeds to start a bank of sorts, I got 49 different varieties.

The plan is to give seeds for free to three different friends, then in the fall they are paying me back with more seeds as well as storing their own supply.
After one season we will all have seeds to replant our gardens and also start a community bank which will give away seeds to anyone as long as they agree to repay the bank with interest.

Harvesting seeds from tomatoes and peppers are fairly easy but some other vegetables are more difficult, so I am buying the book "Seed to Seed" which covers seed harvesting from 160 different varieties of vegetables.

If this works out well this year I will add more different vegetables next year, and so on until we have as many as we can find. After a year or two I hope to be proficient at recovering seeds from many different types and can hold workshops in the fall to teach others.

All the best...Bob.

[Treetop]

Bob... im a plant breeder, though Ive only started. Ive got seeds for most anything you may want. You guys have grains covered? Most things I have to grow out first myself, but I have got those to. Also, something most gardeners never consider is getting the RIGHT seeds. It isnt "heirloom" you want exactly it is open pollinated. Truthfully that doesnt matter either, starting with hybrids known to work well in the area is good enough despite what you may have read. hybrids are simply two stabilized varieties crossed together. the first year F1 will have attributes from both parents, and making the same cross will always give you the same hybrid. If you save seeds from said hybrid after that first year you will start to see ALL the various combinations of the genetics of those two parents including sometimes things you wouldnt expect since they come from the recessives.

So really you want seeds bred for local conditions. Whether hybrids or not. With a hybrid as I was saying by saving seed from the best plants you essentially be breeding your own local varieties. hybrids have whats called hybrid vigor, with certain types of plants. things like corn especially. which is a heavy outcrosser. this is why so many varieties are hybrids. Also if you breed a hybrid and no one knows the parents of it, only you can make it, so its more profitable for breeders. People often get hybrids confused with GMOs and there is ZERO connection. In fact crossing plants is VERY good. this gives you genetic diversity and you can better face disease or stress in your plants.

I could make this all much more complicated then I already have, but those are the basics, anyone feel free to ask questions..... You want locally adapted seeds. Open pollinated (heirloom simply means an old open pollinated variety and some of the newer ones are indeed better have had better breeding) Hybrids are fine if the work well locally. In fact in many cases hybrids would be a better choice if no or few SOLID choices are known to work well locally, because youd essentially be breeding your own.....

[Treetop]

bob.... also the seed to seed book isnt needed. not that its hurts its a decent book though kinda watered down actually, I think its WAY over rated. You can find that all online including entire and more comprehensive "books" on the subject. Most of it is rather common sense once you know the basics. If you want to get it great, but you can look it up online for each plant type in seconds and write it down and ave some cash. Or find one of those more comprehensive and free guides, or ask me...... but if your on a budget, then pass on the book, because it doesnt have a shred of info you couldnt figure out in seconds now, or even by trial and error later.

[justoneguy]

[quote="coinking2005"]
The recycled tote was missing the lid so I just screwed on a piece of treated plywood to work for a lid. quote]
What is the plywood treated with ?
some treated wood contains copper arsenic.
be careful.
my neighbor had a raised garded made with arsenic treated boards.
now she has cancer, coincidence?

[Treetop]

The recycled tote was missing the lid so I just screwed on a piece of treated plywood to work for a lid. quote]
What is the plywood treated with ?
some treated wood contains copper arsenic.
be careful.
my neighbor had a raised garded made with arsenic treated boards.
now she has cancer, coincidence?

very possibly no coincidence, keep that stuff away from food!!! and for anyone planning a raised bed, you dont NEED sides. sure the side will spread a bit but who cares? You can pile rocks at the edge to hold it in a bit, or nothing. you could also use non treated wood, which has a life span. I like using cinder blocks and NOT cementing them in, just shoving the holes with soil to make it hard. this way you can move it, or use those blocks to build later or whatever you want or need. they also dont corrode like wood, which even treated wood which isnt safe will decompose right there in the garden....

[Mossy]

So really you want seeds bred for local conditions.

I tried to get that across to some people a few years back, that starting with hybreds would actually help someone /develop/ a strain that was better for local conditions.

They went into a "Four legs good, two legs bad" rant.

[coinking2005]

What is the plywood treated with ?
some treated wood contains copper arsenic.
be careful.
my neighbor had a raised garded made with arsenic treated boards.
now she has cancer, coincidence?

very possibly no coincidence, keep that stuff away from food!!!

Thanks Guys, My Wife was wondering about me using the treated plywood. (she was right, but don't tell her that)

I took the wood top off and went with a soft top. I had some extra pond liner from our fish gardens so I bent two sections of galvanized conduit in an arch, screwed them to the rim of the big tote in a cross formation and zip tied them together. Then I stretched the liner over the top and used metal clips to attach the liner to the tote. I then made an X cut to put the flex down spout through. I wanted to build this on the cheap, it cost a little over $50 bucks for the spouting, hardware, bulk head fitting and faucet. Now just need some rain.

[Treetop]

http://alanbishop.proboards.com/index.c ... hread=3964

heres a link to a great gardening forum but specifically this link is to a post of hordes of great seed companies!!!!

[tbram88]

Treetop, thanks for your post there is a lot of information there. I agree with you about the book and a quick google search found me several PDF files with plenty of seed harvesting details.

As of now we don't have any grains, just Vegetables at this point. The seeds I purchased are from a farmer in my state who says they are open pollinated, non-GMO.

I am experimenting with some seeds I recovered from last year, these are peppers that were purchased as seedlings from a local nursery. I would assume they are hybred and was told that they will not produce quality plants year after year, and may not grow at all.

Keep the advise comming I can use all the help I can get. If you want, PM me with a list of grains and other seeds you have available, I will probably be needing more vegetables and want to get into grains. BTW will you trade 90% for seeds?

All the best...Bob.

[Treetop]

hopefully no one thinks Im derailing the thread here...

Great score on the seeds from a local farmer. Especially if hes a seed saver and these are not only locally proven but locally saved.

as for the hybrid pepper seeds, like I was saying, youd get pepper plants every time that much is a given. It is true they wouldnt be consistent plants , although often they would. Heres an industry secret, most things labelled hybrids are not. theres possible advantages in hybrids believe it or not. Many actually. First perhaps you simply cannot find the BEST suited varieties. If you can great go with those, OR start your own "landraces" out of the best suited ones, and in time have even better ones. Perhaps you just dont have the time to locate or trial the best varieties for local conditions. With a hybrid, its as if a plant breeder made the first cross. So the first year with growing seed from any cross like this the resultant plants will be the same. continuing to save the seeds and grow from the best plants, will automatically select the genetics that your soil, that your methods do best with. youll grow useful plants, even the ones that werent ideal, but the best plants, those that fit your soil, watering levels, and your tastes. You can even take that many ways and select plants with more specific abilities, without to much trouble at all. So Id never tell anyone to pick hybrids above open pollinaed or vice versa, it depends on whats available to you, and where you are, but for many its an acceptable or even ideal choice.

As for whoever you heard say you cannot save seeds from hybrids, I absolutely promise you they were wrong. Its a very common mis conception even among "master gardeners". think about it this way... when a bee takes pollen from one squash plant to another, does a bee know if hes taking pollen from two plants humans decided to call different varieties? no. Does having a different shape or flavor in a selected squash make it behave so genetically different that it cannot bred with other squash in its species? nope.... Heck go back pre human, two isolated patches of squash, with different accumulated mutatios (like humans would call different varieties) and a seed is taken from one to the other somehow, if they couldnt cross together such things would of driven most species to extinction long ago.

There are two main classes of plants. Out breeders and inbreeders. things like peas and tomatoes are inbreeders. their flowers will pollinate themselves, usually before the flower even opens. These types of plants theres little to no hybrid vigor from crossing two varieties. Though it could still have the benefits of getting attributes from both parents if you purposely cross them or the other advantages I listed. And if you cant find locally adapted thigs its a great place to start. Things like corn and brocoli are outbreeders. You NEED 100 plants minimum if its a single selected variety to save seed well. If you dont have 100 plus plants (preferably 400plus) you will crash the genetics, you wont even be able to grow it after a few years in most cases. with these types of plants that vigor fro, having crossed two varieties can be extreme which is why almost all corn youll see is hybrid, yields are much higher IF its a good hybrid for your area. Even perfectly adapted local varieties would be outpaced by a perfectly adapted hybrid 100 percent of the time. which is why the tribes for instance were such heavy seed traders! and rarely selected their varieties to as controlled of selections as we do today. they worked with "landraces" which among other things ensured they always had diverse enough genetic material. Trying to keep this simple but still explain complex things, hopefully i did ok. Feel free to ask questions...