Man, why haven't people learned yet?

[Corsair]

you would think as a buyer that "100 mills" would kinda ring a bell!?....maybe go investigate what this means first.

Bingo! Yahtzee! What do you we have for him, Johnny?

[999Ni]

yea where's my prize!

[NDFarmer]

Hell yes it's a rip off! But it's not unethical. It's not illegal.

I disagree I think it is very unethical.

[Corsair]

Hell yes it's a rip off! But it's not unethical. It's not illegal.

I disagree I think it is very unethical.

Is it unethical to sell the Hot Springs "P" ATB coin for $400 on eBay when buyers can still get it from the Mint for $280?

[Thogey]

Let's git it on! An ethics debate brewin.

Love it!

[999Ni]

Let's git it on! An ethics debate brewin.

Love it!

yea this will be a 5 page thread, watch....

[henrysmedford]

Click on photo for full view.

-.jpg (119.09 KiB) Viewed 661 times

[blackrabbit]

Hell yes it's a rip off! But it's not unethical. It's not illegal.

I disagree I think it is very unethical.

Is it unethical to sell the Hot Springs "P" ATB coin for $400 on eBay when buyers can still get it from the Mint for $280?

Apples and oranges.

The ATB coin is advertised as such and people know what it is. The plated one ounce .999 bars confuse people to the nature of the product.

[Thogey]

Why would an 'honest seller' bring that kind of hassle upon himself?

Anyone with sense can see the title is deceiving 'although legally accurate' (Bill Clinton re' I did not have sex with that woman"). I believe the seller has sense.

It's just not worth collecting money like that.

[Thogey]

It also depends on what the definition of is...is.

[beauanderos]

David, David, David. In the least, regardless of whether this listing is unethical, it is misleading based on the syntax of the listing. Will a few people purchasing these fraudulent worthless bars hold back the price of silver? No. But actions have ripple effects, and buyers once burned (even through their own lack of DD) will scorn their experience with silver and badmouth it to their circle of friends. Butterfly effect. You don't know how widespread the ripple effects of an action can become. A tiny percentage of potential new buyers can become disgruntled and angered because of parasites like this ebay seller, and what could potentially have turned into numerous new silver buyers (helping to increase scarcity leading eventually to a price rise) might instead become embittered towards precious metals. Just imagine how foolish some of these guys will feel when they go into the coin shop to sell their great investment. Whether they are foolish is not the point, it is simply unethical to take advantage of the ignorant segment of buyers that are attracted to these listings because they seem like "a steal." Unfortunately, they can't recognize who the thief really is.

[jerry278]

Clearly unethical, definetely misleading. The fact that it says `1 troy oz' is borderline fradulent. The uninformed buyer probably thinks they're getting a bargain, but is in fact getting ripped off. I think Ray's assumption that the buyers are probably lower class is probably correct. Any affluent serious investor would most likely not fall for it.

Great way to make money sure, but at the end of day is gonna be hard on the conscience.

It reminds me of some threads back about how to deal with old men/women who have a bunch of old silver dollars, who are unaware of their EXACT market value. You could rip them off, but it could come back to haunt you.

[aristobolus]

Why do you have a problem with it? People are taking the garbage they hear on TV directly to their pocketbooks. Not spending any time doing any research whatsoever. Their money is as good as my money is as good as Donald Trump's money. If you can find a way to give them what they want for money, why not do it?

This type of listing damages the integrity of ALL who deal with silver. It smears OUR reputation, and to think otherwise is naive. So... you would like all of us to be tainted with the deceptive listings that one individual is posting? This is no different than SLV claiming to be backed by real silver bars. Actions like these demonstrate contempt for people who are ignorant the finer points of silver investing... but you were all there once. How did you learn? From people who arrogantly laughed at your stupidity for bidding on an item like this? Or perhaps you benefitted from someone who patiently took the time to explain that listings like this are preying on people's ignorance, taking blatant advantage of them, to further their own cause. This guy will just take his profits and buy more "art bars" and perpetuate the problem, and other leaches will see what he is doing and imitate him. This siphons off real money and indirectly suppresses the silver price!!! And takes advantage of the disadvantaged to begin with. Someone at the lowest end of the economic scale slaved hours at paltry wages just to afford what appears to be an inexpensive means of providing them a bit of financial security... yet they are being duped. And yet, some can defend this? And even applaud it? Unbelievable.

Amen

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Why do you have a problem with it? People are taking the garbage they hear on TV directly to their pocketbooks. Not spending any time doing any research whatsoever. Their money is as good as my money is as good as Donald Trump's money. If you can find a way to give them what they want for money, why not do it?

This type of listing damages the integrity of ALL who deal with silver. It smears OUR reputation, and to think otherwise is naive. So... you would like all of us to be tainted with the deceptive listings that one individual is posting? This is no different than SLV claiming to be backed by real silver bars. Actions like these demonstrate contempt for people who are ignorant the finer points of silver investing... but you were all there once. How did you learn? From people who arrogantly laughed at your stupidity for bidding on an item like this? Or perhaps you benefitted from someone who patiently took the time to explain that listings like this are preying on people's ignorance, taking blatant advantage of them, to further their own cause. This guy will just take his profits and buy more "art bars" and perpetuate the problem, and other leaches will see what he is doing and imitate him. This siphons off real money and indirectly suppresses the silver price!!! And takes advantage of the disadvantaged to begin with. Someone at the lowest end of the economic scale slaved hours at paltry wages just to afford what appears to be an inexpensive means of providing them a bit of financial security... yet they are being duped. And yet, some can defend this? And even applaud it? Unbelievable.

Ray, Ray, Ray. First, major logical fallacy in red. I don't know how my support of something that breaks no laws and is not deceptive leads to me also wanting all of our reputations to be tainted. Second, in blue, how did I learn the things I know? I learned by asking questions. I learned by keeping my eyes open. I learned by reading and thinking critically and contemplating my actions and listening to very wise people, like yourself. Do you want to know how I didn't "learn"? I didn't "learn" by hearing that I should by gold and silver from the television, rush like a zombie to my computer, and bid on as much silver on eBay as possible. That isn't how I learned. Third, in green, I think even you can say that it's a stretch to believe that this kind of action lowers the price of silver. Seriously, Ray? One eBay seller throwing up his few dozen of rip off art bars will hold back the price of silver? I know what you'll say. "But his actions lead to others selling the same crap and ripping more people off and driving down the price!!!" You can't blame the seller for the actions of other sellers. You can't blame Sean Connery for making me weary of people with white cats. That's ridiculous. And lastly, in purple, you make the assumption that the buyers are in the lower class of society. But if you check the seller's feedback (positive feedback, mind you), many of the satisfied buyers have ratings in the 400's, 600's, and 800's. It's absurd to think that the only people that buy from him are those who work "slaved hours at paltry wages." And maybe, Ray, maybe you're right. Maybe it's the very poor people who are buying from this guy. Maybe they are those people who have to take on a third job to pay for the gas to get to the other two. What in the hell are they doing buying silver from eBay for $50/"oz" without doing any research at all? That's shameful! They could buy a tank of gas or a week of food off that money. And what do they do with it instead? They listen word for word to the drivel that comes out of their television, obey it to a T, and blow their money without doing a second's worth of homework. Now that, my friend, is pathetic.

I would never engage in this type of business. Hell yes it's a rip off! But it's not unethical. It's not illegal. You want to protect those potential buyers by filing reports against this seller, be my guest. But these people need a lot more help than one less scam artist on eBay. A lot more help.

Out-lined in red is the only flaw in your logic. You admit it is a rip-off. Rip-offs, by definition, are unethical.

[beauanderos]

All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[IdahoCopper]

Here are some facts.

A "mil" is 1/1000th of a dollar, or 1/10th of a penny. Its a common unit that has fallen out of use with inflation over the last 100 years.

So to be accurate, in the legal sense, 100 mils of silver is equal to 1/10th of the constitutionally defined "silver dollar".

A silver dollar is supposed to be 371.25 grains of silver, or 0.7734375 troy ounces of silver.

So 100 mils of .999 fine silver must be 1/10th of a silver dollar, or 0.07734375 troy ounces of silver.

If the product being sold does not have that much silver, the sellers are certainly liars and cheats.

Last night, I sent a message to one of those eBay sellers, asking how much silver is in each bar. No reply yet.

[beauanderos]

Here are some facts.

A "mil" is 1/1000th of a dollar, or 1/10th of a penny. Its a common unit that has fallen out of use with inflation over the last 100 years.

So to be accurate, in the legal sense, 100 mils of silver is equal to 1/10th of the constitutionally defined "silver dollar".

A silver dollar is supposed to be 371.25 grains of silver, or 0.7734375 troy ounces of silver.

So 100 mils of .999 fine silver must be 1/10th of a silver dollar, or 0.07734375 troy ounces of silver.

If the product being sold does not have that much silver, the sellers are certainly liars and cheats.

Last night, I sent a message to one of those eBay sellers, asking how much silver is in each bar. No reply yet.

A mil is the term used in electroplating to describe the thickness of the electroplating. A mil is 1/1000th of an inch, so a coating of 100 mils will be a plating of 1/10 of an inch.

[brian0918]

It is certainly unethical, though not illegal. In other words, it is not fraud, because he is not lying. It is however unethical, because he is relying on the ignorance of the buyer in grossly overpaying for the item, based on a term that few are familiar with. So while it is wrong, it doesn't violate any rights, so nobody should go to jail. But he also shouldn't expect not to get negative feedback, pissed-off customers, a bad reputation, and no repeat business. None of those things are in his long-term self-interest, so it is unethical for him to maintain this form of business.

[scrapper2010]

Hell yes it's a rip off! But it's not unethical. It's not illegal.

I disagree I think it is very unethical.

Is it unethical to sell the Hot Springs "P" ATB coin for $400 on eBay when buyers can still get it from the Mint for $280?

Not at all because you can only get one set from the mint per household. If you want more than one set you'll have to pay more based on open market prices. I felt the need to chime in on that one because I sold mine.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Hmmmm... After my last post, I had to ask myself: "Are rip-offs really unethical?"

Here is the latest definition of rip-off:

(rĭp'ôf', -ŏf')
n. Slang

1. A product or service that is overpriced or of poor quality.
2. Something, such as a film or story, that is clearly imitative of or based on something else.
3. A theft.
4. An act of exploitation.


Here is the latest definition of unethical:

Adj. 1. unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior; "unethical business practices"
Antonyms:
ethical - conforming to accepted standards of social or professional behavior; "an ethical lawyer"; "ethical medical practice"; "an ethical problem"; "had no ethical objection to drinking"; "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants"- Omar N. Bradley
2. unethical - not adhering to ethical or moral principles; "base and unpatriotic motives"; "a base, degrading way of life"; "cheating is dishonorable"; "they considered colonialism immoral"; "unethical practices in handling public funds"
Synonyms: dishonourable, immoral, base, dishonorable

I am showing my age again. Back in the day, when "rip-off" first became popular on a national scale, "rip-off" meant to steal, rob, or exploit someone in a terrible way. Now it is not that harsh a term. It can simply mean providing a poor quality service, or product of some kind.

Is this deal a rip off? Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. Is this rip-off heinous enough to be called unethical? That is highly debatable given our moral decay as a society over the last century. You first must establish what is ethical. Was the intent of the seller to deceive by word-smithing a hard to understand sales pitch, thereby duping some people? Debatable again, but for me the answer is yes.

A lie by deception, or omission, is still a lie. For me, this rip-off is unethical.

Now, back to more important matters. Like making money at work!

[Neckro]

I don't get it, everything is on their webpage stating what it is. If the buyer doesn't know what their buying, it's their fault. The seller is just offering something that's silver plated. Buyers ignorance doesn't equal sellers guilt.

[psi]

To me the ordering of the words in the title clearly suggests that "1 Troy Oz 999 Fine Silver" is up for sale, which is contradicted by the "100 mils" part only if you happen to be familiar with that terminology. "Clad" is another clue but the far more universally understood term "plated" appears nowhere. Looks like not many people have bid on these since one buyer realized they are fake and posted negative feedback.

[brian0918]

I don't get it, everything is on their webpage stating what it is. If the buyer doesn't know what their buying, it's their fault. The seller is just offering something that's silver plated. Buyers ignorance doesn't equal sellers guilt.

But if during the writing of the listing, the seller attempted to word it in such a way as to increase the likelihood of buyers being deceived, then it is unethical. Based on the current wording, I have to conclude that he did. Therefore I believe it was unethical.

The seller worded it that way for some reason - he did not simply choose words out of a hat. The reasons behind his decisions - those are how you judge the ethicality of his decisions. I don't know the reasons, but I can make an educated guess.

[VWBEAMER]

It's fundamentally dishonest. no question.

[Neckro]

I don't get it, everything is on their webpage stating what it is. If the buyer doesn't know what their buying, it's their fault. The seller is just offering something that's silver plated. Buyers ignorance doesn't equal sellers guilt.

But if during the writing of the listing, the seller attempted to word it in such a way as to increase the likelihood of buyers being deceived, then it is unethical. Based on the current wording, I have to conclude that he did. Therefore I believe it was unethical.

The seller worded it that way for some reason - he did not simply choose words out of a hat. The reasons behind his decisions - those are how you judge the ethicality of his decisions. I don't know the reasons, but I can make an educated guess.

The picture of the item stats what it is clearly. Unethical would be trying to sell those items without having mills/clad/plated on it.