Lame

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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:02 pm

neilgin1 wrote:penny, due respect that's the way the russkie's think that business is done after their commie way of doing things fell apart and the wall came down, those filthy bastards think capitalism is this: "hooray for me, and [fluff] you", they have no compunction's on intellectual property theft, no compunction s on false advertising, just like the seller of the $500 box of halves, which as you predicted nobody bought, here it is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/500-UNOPENED-Box-US ... 35b340b1a4

here's what he says:

"$500 UNOPENED Box US Half Dollars Bank Sealed SILVER?
UNSEARCHED BOX!!!! SILVER FOUND!!!!"

and you can say with a straight face, that is not false advertising in its implications?

you know, if you dont believe in straight shooters in a particular business cleaning up and self policing the cheap jack slimsters operating in our tent, then you and i got very little in common in the ways how business is done, if you dont stand with the straight dealers, well, then,,,,,,,,,,,


A few points here...

You identify Commies above as "hooray for me... and so on" I believe I follow your intent... but...

neilgin1 wrote:true...i am a mercantilist, a capitalist, a trader, and there is that feeling that if you REALLY TRADE, the uniniated look down on us, to which i say "[fluff] 'em". the price is, where the price trades. i takes me profits, i takes me losses, i dont squeal whine or moan.


I must say this confuses me a bit. They sound to similar to me.

Next... false advertising in its IMPLICATIONS? You are judging this individual on what your perception is of his statement is. If it said... "A BOX OF ROLLED UP SOLID SILVER".. THAT would be false advertising. Do I think it's shady the way it is now? Yes. Should he be shut down? No. Why? BECAUSE IT IS HIS RIGHT to prey on the ignorant (within some CLEARLY defined boundaries)... JUST LIKE IT IS MY RIGHT TO BE IGNORANT (and I am ignorant in MANY things! The one's that I am ignorant in... I simply choose not to make hastily decisions in). The key is at what point does preying on the ignorant become unlawful and morally reprehensible? SURE it sounds AWFUL to say preying on the ignorant... but doesn't Wal-Mart do it EVERY SECOND of EVERY DAY? How do they differ? Does this man cross the line that Wal-Mart somehow does not? Is it due to his asking price? Is it due to the perceived intent of the wording in his advertising?

And as for the ignorant... to me... the seller is ignorant. Just a little less ignorant than the person to whom he is trying to sell to. If the ignorant wish to have their dealings... then so be it. It is not up to my knowledge to step in and put a stop to it simply because I know better than many as to the value of those coins... unless there is somehow a blunt lie being told (and I will admit.. he boarders it). If I DO step in and stop it... then I have successfully shut down this man's capitalistic avenue simply due to my concern with the possibility of someone misinterpreting his speech (at which point I have successfully stepped on his freedom of speech). THAT scares me! I know what the removal of one's freedom can do to people. And I know what the lack of protecting the ignorant and defenseless can lead to as well. It is a HEAVY burden to bear... and the dividing lines between the two MUST BE CLEAR... and to take actions simply on the perceived implications of one's speech... well... the implications should be SERIOUS enough in nature as to warrant the trampling of another mans freedom. If it is not (such as I believe in this case)... then we all collectively take one VERY small tear out of the bill of rights.

The one thing that is not mentioned here is that his ad is posted on a private site. It is therefore the right of the siteowners to restrict or allow whatever material they wish in any manor in which they choose to regulate it. If they do so simply by suggestions from their users. That's fine by me! Take him out! I simply choose not to do so since... as mentioned... I do not step on the freedom of speech of others lightly.

By the way... I define the liberal mindset as a 3rd party taking from the educated and giving to the ignorant in order to balance things out. The conservative mindset is to say... now that I AM educated... it is my responsibility to give back to those who are less fortunate. AND THE GREATEST thing that can EVER be given to someone IS knowledge (although to whom much is given much shall be required I don't think means to share ONLY your knowledge. Wealth almost always follows knowledge).
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Re: Lame

Postby ScottyTX » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:08 am

Pennybug wrote:The key is at what point does preying on the ignorant become unlawful and morally reprehensible? SURE it sounds AWFUL to say preying on the ignorant... but doesn't Wal-Mart do it EVERY SECOND of EVERY DAY? How do they differ? Does this man cross the line that Wal-Mart somehow does not? Is it due to his asking price? Is it due to the perceived intent of the wording in his advertising?

Nah this guys seems more like Thogey's example of a Used car dealer to me. I believe it more of the way he is trying to represent his product that seperates him clearly from your average retailer and such. It all in the misrepresentation that one can find clear fault in.

Pennybug wrote: AND THE GREATEST thing that can EVER be given to someone IS knowledge (although to whom much is given much shall be required I don't think means to share ONLY your knowledge. Wealth almost always follows knowledge).


The phase my daddy always told me was: Son, give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Now teach that man how to fish and feed him for a lifetime. That's all fine and dandy but the problem isn't the ability to gain knowledge this day and age, as it is literaly at your finger tips. It's the ignorant SOB's who just want their damn fish on a plate every morning when they wake up cause they don't want to go fishing! You can't give knowledge to someone who does not seek it. In fact, in a sense nobody can actually "give" knowledge, they can just merely share it with those who actually want it.
"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. "
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Re: Lame

Postby adagirl » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:43 am

AGgressive Metal wrote:
Snake42 wrote:Dude I know exactly what you are saying. If you try and make money with anything other than a 9-5 you are looked down on.


Basically. People act like turning a profit by flipping something is unclean, yet sucking off the government is fine and an "entitlement".

Excellent! I could not have said it better! :mrgreen:
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Re: Lame

Postby neilgin1 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:38 pm

@Pennybug....that is an excellent post you made above, you have a great mind, and it is a PLEASURE (i'm very serious) to be engaging in this dialogue with you.

from the bottom of my heart i mean that....true, i might disagree with some of it, but it reminds me in many ways of some of the issues the founding fathers of this country dealt with. Not that we are the giants they were in their day, but y'know what? in our small way, in our limited impacts, we are all giants, that we can discuss as such, and remain civil and measured with each other....thats what makes us "giants" in our way...right here, right now.

(you make me want to start watching my DVD set of "John Addams" right now, but....)

but, i got about three million things to do right now....still, will you allow me to touch upon a few things, and then get back to the 'meat' of this later?

the way i'm reading this all is that we got TWO crucial issues at stake; the BIG ONE-----FREEDOM, and the second issue is the sanctity of the silver market, physical silver, whether it be here, off the board, between 'members', Ebay...which is the genesis of this thread, and all other silver markets, which MIGHT include Comex.

there's actually the way i see it, a third massive issue, where we are headed as a country, OUR United States of America, and thats the hardest issue of all to deal with, coz you and i and all here, have little power to shape the national polity.........so let me come back to discuss that great post you made Pennybug, if i may. neil
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Re: Lame

Postby coppernicus » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:29 pm

By the way... I define the liberal mindset as a 3rd party taking from the educated and giving to the ignorant in order to balance things out. The conservative mindset is to say... now that I AM educated... it is my responsibility to give back to those who are less fortunate. AND THE GREATEST thing that can EVER be given to someone IS knowledge (although to whom much is given much shall be required I don't think means to share ONLY your knowledge. Wealth almost always follows knowledge).

Pennybug,
While these may be your definitions...they are very different from wikipedia definitions:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, and the freedom of religion

Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve")[1] is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to the way things were.
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:44 pm

neilgin1 wrote:@Pennybug....that is an excellent post you made above, you have a great mind, and it is a PLEASURE (i'm very serious) to be engaging in this dialogue with you.

from the bottom of my heart i mean that....true, i might disagree with some of it, but it reminds me in many ways of some of the issues the founding fathers of this country dealt with. Not that we are the giants they were in their day, but y'know what? in our small way, in our limited impacts, we are all giants, that we can discuss as such, and remain civil and measured with each other....thats what makes us "giants" in our way...right here, right now.

(you make me want to start watching my DVD set of "John Addams" right now, but....)

but, i got about three million things to do right now....still, will you allow me to touch upon a few things, and then get back to the 'meat' of this later?

the way i'm reading this all is that we got TWO crucial issues at stake; the BIG ONE-----FREEDOM, and the second issue is the sanctity of the silver market, physical silver, whether it be here, off the board, between 'members', Ebay...which is the genesis of this thread, and all other silver markets, which MIGHT include Comex.

there's actually the way i see it, a third massive issue, where we are headed as a country, OUR United States of America, and thats the hardest issue of all to deal with, coz you and i and all here, have little power to shape the national polity.........so let me come back to discuss that great post you made Pennybug, if i may. neil


Thank you Neil! I'm EXCEPTIONALLY glad that you have posted one thing that I did overlook. That is as follows: I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY! We may disagree in many areas... but you know what? I would never want to surround myself with people that ONLY agree with me. THAT is where learning stops. Wisdom is the ability to see knowledge and filter it through truth. Websites like this are a WONDERFUL source of knowledge! Unfortunately the filters of truth in this nation have been replaced with with the cup of personal gratification and therefore we... as a nation.. have developed into a stagnated pool of personal interpretations of right and wrong rather than by using the filters of absolutes on the fundamental principles of issues.

And YES! YOU HIT THE ULTIMATE NAIL ON THE HEAD! These ARE the issues that our founding fathers faced!!! We must look to the Constitution and the bill of rights beyond using them as measures of our government and into how we deal with self governing others (even down to the internet and how we respond to such things as flagging on Craigslist). IF WE DO NOT... then we will bypass the fundamental freedoms that all men are bestowed with for the sake of seeing things go in the way in which WE want them to go. YES!!! WE ARE ALL GIANTS!!! THEY WERE OUR FORFATHERS but without our adherence to their fundamental principles... the living history of this nation will become merely monuments of forgotten truths.

If you may? Neil... regardless of whatever you were to EVER post to or about me (again... within CLEARLY defined boundaries that DO NOT encroach upon my personal pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness)... I will ALWAYS stand for your right to say it! REGARDLESS OF your agreements or disagreements!

In closing... it is a pleasure to have this dialogue with you as well! The unfortunate truth of the matter is that FAR to many people in this country could care less about such discussions and would not bother with having them! IN fact... I would bet that better than 90% of the people that click on this particular thread wouldn't bother to read EITHER ONE of our postings... simply due to the fact that they are too long and their attention span is too short. I FOR ONE... am NOT one of them!

PS... about PM's... on a side note... I do not collect ANY PM's that are not certified minted US currency. WHY? Because every time I look at it I read the words "IN GOD WE TRUST". I choose to never look upon my own gold or silver and forget that our founding fathers placed this upon our money so that we would NOT loose our sight in where the strength of this nation is drawn from. It keeps me mindful my strength is not defined by my assets.
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Re: Lame

Postby Thogey » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:49 pm



All kidding aside: Pennybug, I thought neil smoked your ass...until I read your responses.

great dialogue.

realcent rules!
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: Lame

Postby Thogey » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:56 pm

I never would have thought this thread would have got so much traction.


The ethical discussions always do though.
Last edited by Thogey on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:58 pm

coppernicus wrote:By the way... I define the liberal mindset as a 3rd party taking from the educated and giving to the ignorant in order to balance things out. The conservative mindset is to say... now that I AM educated... it is my responsibility to give back to those who are less fortunate. AND THE GREATEST thing that can EVER be given to someone IS knowledge (although to whom much is given much shall be required I don't think means to share ONLY your knowledge. Wealth almost always follows knowledge).

Pennybug,
While these may be your definitions...they are very different from wikipedia definitions:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, and the freedom of religion

Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve")[1] is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to the way things were.


Very true... problem is that Wiki is an open source dictionary. DON'T EEEEEVVVVERR use it as a reference in publishing anything of true importance... like published research (especially in the realm of higher education. You will almost CERTAINLY be asked to find other sources to quote). As for blogging... yeah sure... no sweat. That said... under these definitions... I would almost call myself a liberal... minus the section of "a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles". THAT statement alone defines liberalism at its core. It is a simple adherence to the belief that there are no absolute rights or wrongs, only relative right and wrongs. That is where I get off the bus.
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:09 pm

[quote=]All kidding aside: Pennybug, I thought neil smoked your ass...until I read your responses.

great dialogue.

realcent rules![/quote]

Thogey.... I know where you are coming from... but I never view debate as a win loose when viewing as a 3rd party. The purpose of debate is to learn from the one's who are debating. The purpose from the aspect of the debator is to learn from the opposing (or in this case)... slightly different view. I don't see it as a win loose thing. At least that's the way I see things. I'm only here to learn... nothing more. I only post to teach... nothing more. I never hold one's age or experience in life as a measure to which I can learn from them.

Nice video by the way! :D
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Re: Lame

Postby coppernicus » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:26 am

It is a simple adherence to the belief that there are no absolute rights or wrongs, only relative right and wrongs. That is where I get off the bus.
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I guess I have often found that what I once thought was black and white becomes more gray when you learn additional information.

I grew up being a big believer in the golden rule. Do unto other as you would want to be done unto. However I realized a couple of things 1.) not everyone wants to be treated the same way that I do and 2.) Life is not always fair

Later in life I learned the "platinum rule"...Do unto others as they want to be done unto. This fixed the couple of issues I had with the golden rule but I often found that things change based on conditions.

Therefore I now live my life by "Do the right thing....Know why it is the right thing to do!" This allows for the continuos improvement process to be incorporated into the philosophy. The right thing to do might change, but only because I have new or better information.

I find that every time there appears to be an absolute truth, circumstances occur that make it less absolute. Every time you try to write down a rule...situations arise that were not originally considered. Our founding fathers that said "all men are created equal" had slaves and did not allow women to vote. So I think there are definitely some changes that make sense!

I found it interesting that you said by reading the definition you would almost consider yourself a liberal. It appears to me that we frequently label things as good or bad without really understanding them or being able to differentiate the differences. In trying to "do the right thing" I find it is a balance between liberal and conservative ideas. Things that "are right" should stay that way and things that are not should be able to change.

This whole topic started by what is "fair". I think the original ad was a little misleading. The question becomes what are the consequences for that. I do not think the ad is how a respected business would want to portray themselves, however the consequences are what become important. Is getting a negative feedback fair? There are LOTS of things that can be done in addition to that that are legal but not necessarily a fair response or consequence to the ad. You then realize that "legal" is as determined by society and CAN change. So the consequences of your actions may be supported by society today or in the future or may be supported by some higher power at a later time(If you believe in that).
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:12 am

coppernicus wrote: I guess I have often found that what I once thought was black and white becomes more gray when you learn additional information.

I grew up being a big believer in the golden rule. Do unto other as you would want to be done unto. However I realized a couple of things 1.) not everyone wants to be treated the same way that I do and 2.) Life is not always fair

Later in life I learned the "platinum rule"...Do unto others as they want to be done unto. This fixed the couple of issues I had with the golden rule but I often found that things change based on conditions.

Therefore I now live my life by "Do the right thing....Know why it is the right thing to do!" This allows for the continuos improvement process to be incorporated into the philosophy. The right thing to do might change, but only because I have new or better information.

I find that every time there appears to be an absolute truth, circumstances occur that make it less absolute. Every time you try to write down a rule...situations arise that were not originally considered. Our founding fathers that said "all men are created equal" had slaves and did not allow women to vote. So I think there are definitely some changes that make sense!

I found it interesting that you said by reading the definition you would almost consider yourself a liberal. It appears to me that we frequently label things as good or bad without really understanding them or being able to differentiate the differences. In trying to "do the right thing" I find it is a balance between liberal and conservative ideas. Things that "are right" should stay that way and things that are not should be able to change.


You have some wonderful points here! A well spoken post I must say! I must point out that Neil 1st made the comment of considering himself a liberal in some sort. I really kinda fed off that. You went on to point out that you have found it to be a balance. EXACTLY correct!

The one thing I disagree with you on is the 1st line. You state that as you learn more the more black and white become grey. I have found it to be the other way around. The more I learn... the more grey becomes black and white. It becomes such based upon where you root your truths. Know the truth... and the truth shall set you free! Free from what? Free from the prison that is your own mind! What prison am I talking about? The prison of trying to adhere to what is right and wrong. Only TRUE truths can remove these bars and allow you to see ALL THINGS from a standpoint of KNOWING what IS right and what IS wrong. Am I saying I'm always right? NO! I am only human! I read and learn as much as I can in life... but I only re-read and re-read that which I filter all other knowledge through. #1) The Bible... the only absolute truth. #2) The Bill of Rights. #2) The Constitution. #2) The Declaration of Independence. There are no #3's. These truths I believe are rooted in perfection and they alone are the lenses in which I choose to view the world through. I believe that the 3 mentioned documents have been passed through the filter of the bible without the need to so much as spell check these documents and therefore are inspired by our Creator. The problem with our society (and this is where I throw myself under a bus) is that we have all been deceived into accepting others convictions as truths... and we immerse ourselves in this FAR MORE than we immerse ourselves in the truth. It is at that point that subtle variations in the truth come to look like THE truth. The freedom of Gay Marrage, Abortion, etc. Do these not sound like they would be someone's RIGHT? Do they not sound like truths? If you stray from knowing the ABSOLUTE TRUTHS... then yes! They do become truths in themselves if truth is defined as only being based in relative ideologies. That is why if you come to my house... you will find bibles everywhere and things like framed copies of the bill of rights handing on the walls. They are not here as decorations! They are reminders that I have a duty to know them and a duty to live by them. If I do not... then YOU AND I as well as future generations will pay the price! It saddens me that generations before me forgot that and now we are where we are in this country... on the brink of failure. It is only by patriots such as I, yourself, Neil, and many others on here who SHARE truths FREELY and who are OPEN to learning them at the same time will we stand a chance at turning this disaster that we are in around. BUT... you and I and ALL of us MUST... MUST... MUST.... constantly seek the truth and CONSTANTLY be reminded of what it the truth IS! That is why I log off now to go to Church!
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Re: Lame

Postby coppernicus » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:57 am

The things you state as "absolute truths" were all written by men. They may have been inspired by a higher power...but they were written by men. Those men had there own issues/imperfections.

How do you so easily separate gay marriage/abortion from slavery, women's right to vote?

All were not allowed at your time of "absolute truths" although times have changed and we as a society have realized sometimes "absolute truths" are not so absolute.

The only absolute truth is logic...a theoretical concept that has to have assumptions agreed upon when applied to life.

All of your "absolute truths" apply when dealing with someone with similar assumptions/perspective as your own...Christian living in the US. However those absolute truths encounter a completely different perspective from someone who does not have that same perspective...non-Christian, Non US citizen etc.
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Re: Lame

Postby Chief » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:24 pm

Wow, this thread has sparked a serious discussion of truths, morality, and fundamental views.

First of all, making a profit off of selling something is not wrong. BOTH parties have to agree for a deal to be done. I agree that if one party is undereducated about the true value of the item(s) being sold, that sucks and it is not the other party's obligation to educate the uninformed to what the value of said item(s) is, but also if one of the parties involved in the trade is intentional deceived, that is truly wrong. I mean, if I buy one oz of silver at $36, and I know that this oz of silver will be worth $50 or $100 within a year or two, is that wrong? No, not at all. No one was deceived, if we agreed on the price, how is it my responsibility to educate the seller that with all the Federal spending, debt, and the weakening of the US Dollar, that this oz of silver will be worth a lot more in the future?

Secondly, I truly believe in Christ's teachings and the Ten Commandments. Slavery, gay marriage, abortion, and not allowing women the right to vote are fundamentally wrong. Slavery is/was using/treating Blacks as property. They are humans just as you or I. Gay marriage goes against natural law, at the least. I mean, gay couples, which I don't give a F what you do in your bedroom, will not produce future generations of humans to further our journey as a human society. Abortion is just F'ed up. If you did not want a child to begin with, USE F'ing PROTECTION!!. A child/baby is NOT a choice, it is a blessing. Obliviously, I've had premarital sex (judge not, lest ye be judged), but I was not ready to bring a child into the world, so I was careful with my actions. Women not being able to vote was BS, unless you consider the original intent of the founders to only have voting privileges for property owners (those who have skin the the game). After all, women and men should be equals, and I am no femi-nazi.

These are my 2 cents, worth what you paid for them, but my true feelings at the same time.
Hopefully, I've furthered this great discussion. God bless you all.
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Re: Lame

Postby Market Harmony » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:29 pm

I take it back... the thread title is obviously not lame :D

It's great to see the mind of realcent at work. What the hell is wrong with the rest of the world?
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Re: Lame

Postby Chief » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:59 pm

Market Harmony wrote:What the hell is wrong with the rest of the world?


They are unaware of us/what we know/don't care.
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:38 pm

coppernicus wrote:The things you state as "absolute truths" were all written by men. They may have been inspired by a higher power...but they were written by men. Those men had there own issues/imperfections.

How do you so easily separate gay marriage/abortion from slavery, women's right to vote?

All were not allowed at your time of "absolute truths" although times have changed and we as a society have realized sometimes "absolute truths" are not so absolute.

The only absolute truth is logic...a theoretical concept that has to have assumptions agreed upon when applied to life.

All of your "absolute truths" apply when dealing with someone with similar assumptions/perspective as your own...Christian living in the US. However those absolute truths encounter a completely different perspective from someone who does not have that same perspective...non-Christian, Non US citizen etc.


Then where to morals come from? The concept of right and wrong? Is it logic? If it is... how is it then that people come to different conclusions on issues such as abortion? If logic were the absolute truth... shouldn't we all come to the same logical conclusions? We don't. That very well proves that logic cannot be an absolute. Rather... logic is based on the unspoken or spoken agreement of like mindedness. It is relative to those who's logic leads them to similar conclusions.

As for the difference in perspective (non-Christian) as you pointed out. You are very correct. The absolute truths do encounter a different perspective. They are viewed as relative (since all truths are viewed as relative in the mind of those that do not accept absolute truths) and are therefore dismissed as being false since they do not align with the views of the one who is viewing them. I could go on here... but I'll make it short.

I close with this last statement. OUR VERY PRESIDENT has openly stated that this nation is NOT a Christian nation and was not founded as such. IF that were true... then why does our Deceleration of Independence point to inalienable rights that are bestowed by our Creator? Why does our money say "IN GOD WE TRUST"? One of my favorite lines to say to my wife is "just because you say something doesn't make it true." Our nation was founded to bestow all men with the freedom OF religion... not the freedom FROM all religious artifacts and practices. If you choose not to be a Christian... I support your decision up to giving my very life for you to practice your decision. However, if you tread upon my right to openly proclaim my religion (as we are SOOOO CLOSE to getting to these days)... well... I just HOPE we don't EVER get to that in this nation! I seriously question why any atheist or non-christian in this nation would walk around using our currency... and then claim that we were not founded as a Christian nation. A serious lack of commitment to one's views if you ask me. That would be like me walking around with a credit card that said "in Satan I trust".
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:41 pm

Chief wrote:Wow, this thread has sparked a serious discussion of truths, morality, and fundamental views.

First of all, making a profit off of selling something is not wrong. BOTH parties have to agree for a deal to be done. I agree that if one party is undereducated about the true value of the item(s) being sold, that sucks and it is not the other party's obligation to educate the uninformed to what the value of said item(s) is, but also if one of the parties involved in the trade is intentional deceived, that is truly wrong. I mean, if I buy one oz of silver at $36, and I know that this oz of silver will be worth $50 or $100 within a year or two, is that wrong? No, not at all. No one was deceived, if we agreed on the price, how is it my responsibility to educate the seller that with all the Federal spending, debt, and the weakening of the US Dollar, that this oz of silver will be worth a lot more in the future?

Secondly, I truly believe in Christ's teachings and the Ten Commandments. Slavery, gay marriage, abortion, and not allowing women the right to vote are fundamentally wrong. Slavery is/was using/treating Blacks as property. They are humans just as you or I. Gay marriage goes against natural law, at the least. I mean, gay couples, which I don't give a F what you do in your bedroom, will not produce future generations of humans to further our journey as a human society. Abortion is just F'ed up. If you did not want a child to begin with, USE F'ing PROTECTION!!. A child/baby is NOT a choice, it is a blessing. Obliviously, I've had premarital sex (judge not, lest ye be judged), but I was not ready to bring a child into the world, so I was careful with my actions. Women not being able to vote was BS, unless you consider the original intent of the founders to only have voting privileges for property owners (those who have skin the the game). After all, women and men should be equals, and I am no femi-nazi.

These are my 2 cents, worth what you paid for them, but my true feelings at the same time.
Hopefully, I've furthered this great discussion. God bless you all.


Well spoken Chief! I whole heartedly support this post!
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Re: Lame

Postby Chief » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:45 pm

Pennybug wrote:Well spoken Chief! I wholeheartedly support this post!

Thank you, I was hesitant in posting exactly what I believe, especially when this whole thread wasn't mine to begin with, but seriously, thanks for not making me think I am alone in my fiscally conservative/socially moderate views. Long live the Declaration of Independence/Bill of Rights, and God bless the USA!!

I joined Realcent.org a few months back and have done business with several members here and I really feel that the majority of you all are awesome people with similar views to mine. Thanks, I feel at home here. :)

- Chief
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Re: Lame

Postby neilgin1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:34 am

Pennybug, Coppernicus, Thog, Market Harmony, ScottyTX, adagirl, and any other fellow posters on this thread,

where do i begin?

at the beggining? coz i'm am literally rocked in my seat, my ADD is kicking in, as my brain is moving 20 different directions, its just a glorious thread......glorious, because even though cyber communications can be limiting.....we are communicating, we are in dialogue, and this dialogue is taking us in directions, none dare go today.

at least not in anyway meaningful, or without a lot of screaming and no listening.

Really if you analyze it, what passes off for political discussion these days is nothing more than semi-scripted television theater, complete with villians/heroes, us/them, depending on what "news channel" you watch, ....just for illustration, MSNBC vs. Fox.

I know it all started earlier, in the 90's Bill Clinton was either the devil or Elvis, Newt Gingrich was either the savior of "American values" or the devil, in the early aughts, the "left" or "progressives", went purple with rage "hating" Dubya (forget Cheney, to them he was a "Darth") 9/11 threw a lot of octane in the mix, all sorts of currents in a dark river, now in the late aughts and teens, Barry Obama has the "right"/"conservatives" absolutely wild with a visceral fury and hatred.

Meanwhile, in the midst of this scripted ....show (for want of a better word)...you get the "news".

Just THINKING about describing what a fools brew the "news" has become, makes me weary.

I mean think about it, if you dare, just go to the top of the hour, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, local affilates, and watch what they "lead" with, its inane, vain, like something out of Huxley's "Brave New World". Heaven forbid we stop for ONE second and think, "what in the world is going on?!"

Right now, i could reel off at least TWENTY situations, globally, and/or nationally that could "lead" before any of the pablum that does "lead" the news, things that are potential global/national gamechangers of such import, people would do a mass freakout.

The truth is too painful, and the human experience IS about avoiding pain, total pain avoidance, witness the sales of anti-depressants, anti-anxiety medications. (i'll leave erectile dysfunction med's out the mix)

the truth is too painful, and we all know it.

Thats why we're here; folks who buy sell and self bank( not going to use "hoard") copper, nickel and silver certainly must have a basic worldview that differs from the mainstream, wouldnt you think?

thats why the forum is called "realcent", because underneath it all, we don't trust the underlying national currency, and that in itself is a quiet act of rebellion.

and if you dont trust the currency, you dont trust the national polity, if you dont trust the national polity, you dont trust the national command authority, democrat or republican doesnt even matter. Our personal financial actions underline that erosion of trust.

Doesnt mean you're not a patriot if you dont trust national command authority. When you REALLY love something, God, family, a nation, you love with passion, and true passion should be rooted in clarity. Thats why i dont feel unpatriotic at all, when i say, in ITS CURRENT DEPRAVED IMPERIAL AMBITIONS, i do not trust national command authority.

LBJ----"Gulf of Tonkin", a lie spawned that cost the lives of 58,000 of our brave boys. God only knows how many million Vietnamese and yet at this second, i type this on a table of acacia wood, stamped "Made in Vietnam". Dick Nixon-"i'm not a crook"---"Watergate", which really was not so much about a break in of the DNC, but the exposure of covert operations, so anti-constitutional, so deep and twisted, in the perverting BOTH the Letter and the LAW of the Constitution, how could any sane American with both eyes open, stand by and say "I trust the national command authority", or "i trust the president"?...then to Carter, seduced by power and just hapless in the end, gamed by the folks in the five star bldg, and then the Gipper, not a bad guy, but it was only by the Grace and Mercy of God that we didnt ALL get incinerated in 1983.

i'm going to link a long wikipedia article about something called "Able Archer"....try not to blow it off, its all true, and it will just blow your mind, how close we REALLY came, and its all just come to light recently, and with LITTLE fan fare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83

and of course, there was "Iran-Contragate", which i really dont want to go into, because the same gameplay continues to this very day, only a thousand times more efficiently executed. i mean, you really dont think the "mexican mafia" got SO powerful all on its OWN, d'ya?

nuff said on that. Bush 41, and how he played. Smart fellow surrounded by some really smart guys, they did something hitler only DREAMED about, putting boots on the ground in the oil rich middle east and BEING BEGGED to do so. Brilliant move, the way Bush 41 gamed that idiot babylonian dictator into attacking Kuwait. Google "april glaspie saddam hussein", and see what conclusions you come up with. Hussein was actually stupid enough to be misled into thinking he had a tacit nod and wink to invade Kuwait, but thats the way we roll.

after all, we all want inexpensive gasoline, air conditioning, heating in winter, somebodies GOTTA get it for us, right?

here's the ending of "Three Days of the Condor", filmed in 1973, speaks volumnes, doesnt it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eovei355l4o

"They'll just want you to get it for them".


and what plays bigger? "American Idol"....everybody talks it, thinks about it.

Kurt Cobain was a genius savant with his anthem, "Smells like Teen Spirit" to kick in the Clinton 90's, a soft fat era so full of self indulgence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYxkezUr8MQ

"Here we are now, entertain us"......its funny, to consider that it might have a democrat that drove the nail thru the heart of the middle class, but thats what Clinton presided over, when we began to cede our manufacturing base over to the 3rd world.

Enough with the presidents and national command authority, the whole point i'm striving for is this:

do we trust national command authority, anymore?

if we did, we wouldnt be here at this forum, because we all are engaged in a rebellion of sorts, and wisdom dictates it should be a quiet rebellion, no fangs to it, no wild and crazy talk, just a few folks that see thru the mist, and are making quiet arrangements to protect hearth and kin by saying in deed, "no, this paper does not have my full faith as currency".

oh, i'll use it now, as we all will, but we know the ending, we have history as our guide.

But its the TRUST issue thats at the heart of this whole thing. Its like a wife or husband, that really betrays you...i mean REALLY betrrays you....honest injun? will you EVER really trust them again?

You see, thats why i got so intense against that poor fool trying to peddle the $500 box of clad halves for $3k.

by the by, nobody was foolish enough to hit that offer.

the reason i got intense about that tomfoolery is because in the larger scheme of things we have no control, we cant call the screwheads on their lies, we would either be ignored, or stepped on, we have no power.

But in this little world of silver trade, that is the physical, either on the forum, or say Ebay, we can raise a fuss, we can call the screwheads on their stuff, when they do things to destroy the TRUST of the market.

Its not that we're trying to protect the uneducated in silver/copper/nickel/hard money dealings, we're trying to protect and influence the integrity of the one small area of national life we can, the fair and honest trade of hard money. And i know every person here is absolutely dedicated to a world where a man or woman's honor in commercial dealings is a very precious thing, a world where if pennybug and i decide to trade some pre82's, he would KNOW my word is bond.

Color me idealistic, but i saw TOO much thievery going down on the trading floor, and as a 23 year old trader, could do or say naught, except to say, i never participated in any thievery, jimmy rigging the markets, or behavior that would bring shame upon me or my family.

i'm not as hopeful as some of you dear friends.

I HAVE to tell the story of a perfect storm headed our way, and i cant be quiet. i dont want to depress you, but let me just finish this by telling you whats on my heart, and it is the reason i do lean on God so much.

a perfect storm is headed our way and it has three elements:

the first-----a dwindling finite resource, Crude Oil, so vital to LIFE, as we know it, much of it located in the Islamic regions.

the second----the growing lust for nuclear weaponry, and nuclear weapons themselves are a perfect example of how sin soaked man's heart is, meaning, we can "mimic" the Power of God, by recreating the power of the sun, but for a few seconds, albeit enough to kill millions. Thats dark stuff.

the third------------"religious" fundamentalism....notice i use the word "religious"? i believe that "religion" and God are very different. "religion" is the dark turbid urge and institutions of mankind, while Faith in God is my path, a child-like dependence on God. You'd think that religious fundamentalism is relagated only to Islamic jihadis, but i've posted on too many Christian discussion forums, and know better. Terrible bitter divisive arguments over this bit of doctrine, that doctrine, what Bible translations are "okay", etc

and you can just see, dripping off the page...rage, which is wholly evil, and a lot of these Christians are so so scared of muslims...and hateful, and the Muslims hate them, so put these three elements together, and you can hear the gates of hell creaking open.

i wish, really wish i could end on an "up note", but i have to write whats on my heart. i'm sorry.

neil

for disclosure, i am a Jew who follows Jesus, by the way. i TRY to keep faith issues off realcent postings, because its not the right venue, and i would never want to stumble any new friends, who, at this time, are atheist's, agnostics, or just plain mad at God...my hope is that someday the Wind of the Spirit blows thru your heart and fills you with Love....but thats between you and God...or not.
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Re: Lame

Postby aristobolus » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:42 am

It is a privilege to sit at the feet of such accumulated wisdom. May God bless you all.
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Re: Lame

Postby coppernicus » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:55 pm

Pennybug,
People come to different conclusions because they come from different starting points. If we desire climate change, and I live in Antarctica and you live on the equator. We both want a change, they are just in different directions because of where we started. I want it warmer; you want it cooler. Sex, race, religion, color, language, educational background...lots of different starting points.

Morals come from fairness. Very logical.

As far as Christian/Non-Christian nation...I think the actions are more important than the words. I am a very big believer in doing the right thing(Main point of most religions). Many people say the right things but their actions are much different than their words.
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Re: Lame

Postby Thogey » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:44 pm

This thread is morphing into what the definition of good and bad, right and wrong as it relates to Religion.

This is still a tough concept to wrap my mind around. But because I am christian it is my reality.

Concept: You can be a good, moral person. But you cannot be good enough, you will always fall short.

Not only that, a really shitty person has the opportunity for salvation. It's still tough to swallow that one and I'm still working on it.

Christians do not believe non-christians are bad or immoral just because they are not Christian. Christian have the same flaws as Non-Christians. No matter how good you are it's not enough.

Only one was perfect. So we try really hard to be like him, even though it's impossible, we are still forgiven for our f-ups.

He did what he did Just because he loved us. He loves us.

It's a different topic I think. But this thread obviously has no boundries.
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:19 pm

coppernicus wrote:Pennybug,
People come to different conclusions because they come from different starting points. If we desire climate change, and I live in Antarctica and you live on the equator. We both want a change, they are just in different directions because of where we started. I want it warmer; you want it cooler. Sex, race, religion, color, language, educational background...lots of different starting points.

Morals come from fairness. Very logical.

As far as Christian/Non-Christian nation...I think the actions are more important than the words. I am a very big believer in doing the right thing(Main point of most religions). Many people say the right things but their actions are much different than their words.


Wow... now we are in to the whole "It's not my fault... it's how I was brought up" debate. If in fact different starting points led us to different logic... then different logic would lead us to morals. Hence how you believe we arrive at the difference of pro life/pro choice. If that is the case... then what about raping and molesting a child? Could someone not see that as very acceptable and logical because it was what they experienced growing up and therefore see it as logical (and in turn moral)? I don't see how the mindsets of pro life and pro choice start from different locations and somehow are aimed at having the same common goal. I see them as starting in different locations yes... but trying to reach a common goal? Not hardly. They are of a mindset that starts in one location and continues in the opposite direction of each other... never to meet.

You'd have an impossible battle there with anyone who is pro life, and probably most of the pro choice crowd.

NOOOOOOOOOOO DOUB'T about one thing you said! People say the right things but their actions are different than their words. In fact.. that exact mentality is quoted all throughout the Bible. (Romans 7:15) King David also makes mention of this as well. You see... even the very ones that wrote the Bible acknowledge this fact (as you pointed out earlier). That does not make their writings flawed... it only makes THEM flawed. NO ONE... ONLY JESUS... EVER did absolutely right EVERY SINGLE time in EVERYTHING he did. I whole heartedly believe that it is possible to speak ABSOLUTE and PERFECT truth ALL the time (and I'm FAR from being there) but it is almost impossible to walk it and live it. ONLY through seeing the world through Jesus' eyes can we walk in that truth... and that IS the ultimate of all wisdom. It is the ultimate logic... it is the ultimate truth. The most unique aspect I've discovered about reading the Bible is that I have found it is NOT full of what you would think it is full of. You'd expect to hear all about how we are all a bunch of sinners and how God wants to punish us all by sending us to hell. In fact... hell is part of God's love! Why would he EVER want to make ANYONE be with him in eternity if they did not want to be with him for a short period of time here on earth? As for the stories... it's full of people who are usually WORSE off then the average man today. Adulterers, prostitutes, murderers... that's who Jesus hung out with. Most people have a perception that Christians DON'T want to be around those people... and the sad truth is that most Christian's DON'T want to be around them. This is why I don't call myself a Christian. The word Christian is used about 4 times in the Bible and 3 of them are in a negative format. I call myself a disciple of Christ. It is what I am commanded to be... it is what I am told to sow the seeds for so that others may grow into. It is why I take the time now to post these very words so that others may see... not me... not some pennybug... not someone with a chip on thier shoulder trying to prove that I'm right and others are wrong because they disagree with me... but that there is a true light which can shine in a dark confusing world to illuminate the true path. You see Coppernicus it is MY logic that led me to this realization and YOUR logic that leads you from it. Logic IS relative!

Chief... you know this to be true as well! You stated that you were hesitant to post your convictions. NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!!.. back down from your convictions (once you have found what you know to be the absolute truth)! When you do... it is then that the seeds of doubt will begin to grow and your light will go dim. As for those that do not see the absolute truths... it is not up to me to save them... only for me to show them the door. It is not up to me to force ones like Coppernicus into seeing things my way. I simply choose to flex my freedom of speech while I still have it and post this. For I fear in my heart that there will come a time when I cannot speak in public or on a forum such as this and say what I have said. Even as I type... I type knowing that there are others who can read this and can delete it. THEY... and those like them... are the one's who do not see the danger in censoring speech so flippantly as I have already mentioned. If they choose to leave it... then they choose to let the light shine forth as our forefathers intended it to be. They choose to allow the freedom that all men are bestowed with by their Creator... weather they choose to accept the existence of their Creator or not. That is what made this nation great... and it is through the denial of the absolute truth and censorship thereof that will snuff out the light of this once great nation.
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Re: Lame

Postby Pennybug » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:25 pm

Thogey wrote:This thread is morphing into what the definition of good and bad, right and wrong as it relates to Religion.

This is still a tough concept to wrap my mind around. But because I am christian it is my reality.

Concept: You can be a good, moral person. But you cannot be good enough, you will always fall short.

Not only that, a really shitty person has the opportunity for salvation. It's still tough to swallow that one and I'm still working on it.

Christians do not believe non-christians are bad or immoral just because they are not Christian. Christian have the same flaws as Non-Christians. No matter how good you are it's not enough.

Only one was perfect. So we try really hard to be like him, even though it's impossible, we are still forgiven for our f-ups.

He did what he did Just because he loved us. He loves us.

It's a different topic I think. But this thread obviously has no boundries.


Yes Theo... you are correct. However... the door was opened and I chose to run through it. I am convinced that the computer... through chatrooms and blogs and social networks... is the greatest of all mission fields. And I for one will do all I can to be sure that I sow the seeds from now on... when and where given the chance without disruption or being "rude". I feel like if someone were to remove my posts from here... it would be due to my comments being to bluntly about the Bible... not due to my being off topic. I believe that we did stray on this topic some... but we ultimately boiled the original comments down to their root meanings.
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