Hardest Question - Time to pull the Trigger??

[IdahoCopper]

2. Rents can't be raised, because the renters, and potential renters, are destituted by the economic disaster.


honestly i dont see why this is an issue, youd still be able to make the payments. chances are your renters incomes will NOT track inflation....

If it got real bad you could have them pay you in veggies.... well if theres room to grow anything....

Personally Id keep it myself, based on what you have said. Your out 100 or so a month on these properties? isnt that what you said? doesnt matter what the dollars worth, real estate is a hard asset. If I got that right that your out 100 a month, personally I think its a great nest egg someone else for the most part is building for you....

I do not think that the mortgage company wants to be paid in veggies.

The basic quandary is, Will I need to default or not sometime in the future?

If yes, it makes more sense to default now and use the rents to buy Ag & Au for as long as possible.
If no, it makes more sense to keep the real estate and pay it off with worthless paper.

Will the interest rate be reset from 7.375% to a higher rate or a lower rate in November? In 4 short months, the world can change a lot.

[Pennysaved]

I would recommend meeting with your accountant and a real estate lawyer and paying a couple hundered dollars to make a big decision like this.

You have to take into account the real estate laws in your state (is it a recourse or non-recourse loan) and the tax implications (more than likely you would be considered insolvent).

If you would not be considered insolvent(your assets are worth more than your liabilities) you could owe taxes for letting your rental properties foreclose (you would have to claim it on your taxes as a gift from the bank -- the difference between what you owed and what they ended up selling it for)

If a corporation had to declare bankruptcy or go out of business, would we say they were immoral??? No because they need to do what is best for their business. They signed contracts and leases and may employ 100's or 1000's of people. Think of all the people that affects but in the end if it was the best thing for the business to do that.

You have to look at your situation as a business decision. If you are insolvent and struggling to pay the mortgages, why stay in that situation.

If the tables were turned, the bank would make the same decision.

There was even something in the news about one of the big banks letting one of their office buildings foreclose.

Also, all these lenders could modify the home loans without any government intervention.

However, they have little incentive because many times they are only servicing the loan; they do not actually own any piece of it.

********

Sorry for my long response.

I would just recommend spend a couple hundred $$$ and get professional advise from a real estate lawyer and a good accountant that understands insolvency and foreclosure.

And in the end, you have to take that information and make the best BUSINESS decision for yourself.

[NHsorter]

If you have an adjustable rate on that rental, that would be my biggest fear. Is there any way that you could refi or get them to restructure it to a fixed rate loan? That would make the decision easier I think. I also like pennysaved's advice.

[Treetop]

2. Rents can't be raised, because the renters, and potential renters, are destituted by the economic disaster.


honestly i dont see why this is an issue, youd still be able to make the payments. chances are your renters incomes will NOT track inflation....

If it got real bad you could have them pay you in veggies.... well if theres room to grow anything....

Personally Id keep it myself, based on what you have said. Your out 100 or so a month on these properties? isnt that what you said? doesnt matter what the dollars worth, real estate is a hard asset. If I got that right that your out 100 a month, personally I think its a great nest egg someone else for the most part is building for you....

I do not think that the mortgage company wants to be paid in veggies.

The basic quandary is, Will I need to default or not sometime in the future?

If yes, it makes more sense to default now and use the rents to buy Ag & Au for as long as possible.
If no, it makes more sense to keep the real estate and pay it off with worthless paper.

Will the interest rate be reset from 7.375% to a higher rate or a lower rate in November? In 4 short months, the world can change a lot.

I never said pay the mortgage in veggies. I was assuming they would still have work that didnt track inflation, and would be able to pay at pre inflated levels, covering the balance in veggies.... Do whatever yo like, just saying Id probably keep it if it was me.....

[OneBiteAtATime]

I read this a couple of hours ago and couldn't respond then, but I can now.

Background: I invested heavily in RE and it all went bad, I've said elsewhere "too far too fast". Additionally my primary income was tied to RE, site development, building neighborhoods. So when it went bad in st. louis, it was my investments and my primary business.

I tried and tried but eventually couldn't cobble together the payments. Lost 7 units to foreclosure and then the home. Here's the rub. The banks still wanted to be paid for the difference between the notes and what they sold them for. I swore to myself that I would make good on these debts... on half the income I was accustomed to.

Bottom line: they sued me before I could start paying them back. Bankrupt.

Even with the above story - when I read the plan here, my first thought was "This is theft".

I could not live with myself if I followed this gameplan. I understand there are others who could.

I think wtshtf, your integrity will be worth much much more than your silver.

[IdahoCopper]

Bottom line: they sued me before I could start paying them back. Bankrupt.

Even with the above story - when I read the plan here, my first thought was "This is theft".

I could not live with myself if I followed this gameplan. I understand there are others who could.

I think wtshtf, your integrity will be worth much much more than your silver.

Can you explain what was so magical about filing a few papers to have a judge approve bankruptcy that instantly converted your "theft" into non-theft?

I am constantly amazed by how people let the state have so much power over them. In this example, the gentleman "could not live with himself" if he thought he was stealing. Fair enough, absolutely!

But that feeling is 100% absolved by a black-robed judge signing a paper? How can that be? Why does the state hold so much power over someone, so intimately, so completely?

I would feel the same way as this guy about this as theft if a banker took a sack of silver out of his safe and loaned it to me to buy the houses. I would pay it back in silver, come hell or high water. But that is not what happened.

I signed a note which created the "money" out of thin air. The note was sold and my account was not credited. Then the note was securitized with $100 million in other notes, and sold as AAA securities to some poor sucker who bought the junk. It was not money, it was all fantasy and fraud on the part of the "lender".

There is no money in this country. But the laws, the memories, and the customs still pretend there is money; as the banksters steal the real wealth of the Citizens and the country.

[theo]

You are harmed by forfeiting your morals for money.

A person's word should be his/her bond. When it's not it is that person that suffers the largest cost. Many forget this, but for those that don't they live much happier lives.

This is an interesting conversation, thank you.

So for how long does one attempt to keep his word and pay debts? What if circumstances change, and there is a problem? To pay the debt, does one sell everything down to one set of clothes and a tin cup to beg with? Does one begin to steal to make debt payments?

At some point in a personal financial downfall, it becomes impossible to pay debts. Each person must decide when it is enough loss, and decide to default. I for one would not sell everything down to one set of clothes and a tin cup to make payments to a billion-dollar corporation. Would you do that Barry?

Yea, that's a bit of hyperbole, but there is a kernel of truth within it.

I agree with Onebite and Barrytrot completely here. You entered into a contract. The bank (evil though it may be) gave you the money to buy your rental units, therefore; you must make all reasonable efforts to pay your mortgage. I say "reasonable" because no one expects you to go hungry or allow your lighting/heating bills to go unpaid in favor of your mortgage. That is why the bankruptcy laws were written.

My concern is if there is a currency collapse, mortgages will be re-formed in mass to be in "new" dollars (each worth 10 old dollars). This kind of event would, of course, send just about everybody into foreclosure. However by that time the banks will want your property (with you as a serf on it) far more than a pile of worthless paper. And before you say, "They can't legally do that!" ask yourself; which line in your mortgage contract would stop them? The mortage contract vaguely states that your mortgage is to be paid in dollars. However, if the current dollar is destroyed then the banks will argue in court (successfully IMHO) that the contract would automacally switch to "the legal tender of the nation" which will be the "new" dollar.

Please tell me I'm wrong about this!!!

[beauanderos]

I have read more than a few contributions by various writers who know someone in the legal depts of some of the big banks. If there is a hyperinflationary event they plan to enforce mortgage loan modifications which would take away the "advantages" of paying strong debts with weaker dollars... so that they stay even, but you lose. They KNOW this is going to happen, you can be sure they have planned contingencies to ensure they aren't ruined by it.

[barrytrot]

I read this a couple of hours ago and couldn't respond then, but I can now.

Background: I invested heavily in RE and it all went bad, I've said elsewhere "too far too fast". Additionally my primary income was tied to RE, site development, building neighborhoods. So when it went bad in st. louis, it was my investments and my primary business.

I tried and tried but eventually couldn't cobble together the payments. Lost 7 units to foreclosure and then the home. Here's the rub. The banks still wanted to be paid for the difference between the notes and what they sold them for. I swore to myself that I would make good on these debts... on half the income I was accustomed to.

Bottom line: they sued me before I could start paying them back. Bankrupt.

Even with the above story - when I read the plan here, my first thought was "This is theft".

I could not live with myself if I followed this gameplan. I understand there are others who could.

I think wtshtf, your integrity will be worth much much more than your silver.

OnebiteAtATime: You are a man with integrity! I would lend money to you any time! Although perhaps the "Dave Ramsey" style of real estate investment may be more your style now

[barrytrot]

Bottom line: they sued me before I could start paying them back. Bankrupt.

Even with the above story - when I read the plan here, my first thought was "This is theft".

I could not live with myself if I followed this gameplan. I understand there are others who could.

I think wtshtf, your integrity will be worth much much more than your silver.

Can you explain what was so magical about filing a few papers to have a judge approve bankruptcy that instantly converted your "theft" into non-theft?

I am constantly amazed by how people let the state have so much power over them. In this example, the gentleman "could not live with himself" if he thought he was stealing. Fair enough, absolutely!

But that feeling is 100% absolved by a black-robed judge signing a paper? How can that be? Why does the state hold so much power over someone, so intimately, so completely?

I would feel the same way as this guy about this as theft if a banker took a sack of silver out of his safe and loaned it to me to buy the houses. I would pay it back in silver, come hell or high water. But that is not what happened.

I signed a note which created the "money" out of thin air. The note was sold and my account was not credited. Then the note was securitized with $100 million in other notes, and sold as AAA securities to some poor sucker who bought the junk. It was not money, it was all fantasy and fraud on the part of the "lender".

There is no money in this country. But the laws, the memories, and the customs still pretend there is money; as the banksters steal the real wealth of the Citizens and the country.

Idaho: I read his post and he sounded like he was a man of honor.

I read yours and, well, let's just say, "you did NOT."

So it wasn't "magical paper filing". It was "best effort". The world has a whole bunch of often conflicting rules. People of honor work to follow *true rules*, and some times the "world's rules" prevent that. It happens to the best of them.

[barrytrot]

I would feel the same way as this guy about this as theft if a banker took a sack of silver out of his safe and loaned it to me to buy the houses. I would pay it back in silver, come hell or high water. But that is not what happened.

I'm calling "BS" on this one. You already made it QUITE CLEAR what you thought of paying your debts. You can't pretend that "oh it's just this certain kind of debt that I bail on. The others, I will pay back." Wrong. You either have integrity or you don't.

[barrytrot]

NOTE: You may be asking yourself, "why is Barrytrot getting so worked up over this."

Answer: I care deeply about how people conduct themselves. A person's principles are more valuable and much harder to regain than money.

I've lost money some times, that's easy to get back. When I've lost someone's trust, that takes a new lifetime to restore.

My biggest and really only regrets in life are when I failed to live up to my reputation and/or did something that was dishonorable.

I've been lucky that in many cases by the Grace of God alone I haven't failed even more times than I know I have.

[Treetop]

NOTE: You may be asking yourself, "why is Barrytrot getting so worked up over this."

Answer: I care deeply about how people conduct themselves. A person's principles are more valuable and much harder to regain than money.

I've lost money some times, that's easy to get back. When I've lost someone's trust, that takes a new lifetime to restore.

My biggest and really only regrets in life are when I failed to live up to my reputation and/or did something that was dishonorable.

I've been lucky that in many cases by the Grace of God alone I haven't failed even more times than I know I have.

i dont entirely fault idaho for being so jaded towards banks, but I pretty much agree....

[aloneibreak]

NOTE: You may be asking yourself, "why is Barrytrot getting so worked up over this."

Answer: I care deeply about how people conduct themselves. A person's principles are more valuable and much harder to regain than money.

I've lost money some times, that's easy to get back. When I've lost someone's trust, that takes a new lifetime to restore.

My biggest and really only regrets in life are when I failed to live up to my reputation and/or did something that was dishonorable.

I've been lucky that in many cases by the Grace of God alone I haven't failed even more times than I know I have.

barry, im going to print this paragraph and pin it here to my desk

integrity makes a MAN

im working hard to instill these things in my son

[theo]

I have read more than a few contributions by various writers who know someone in the legal depts of some of the big banks. If there is a hyperinflationary event they plan to enforce mortgage loan modifications which would take away the "advantages" of paying strong debts with weaker dollars... so that they stay even, but you lose. They KNOW this is going to happen, you can be sure they have planned contingencies to ensure they aren't ruined by it.

I have a tough time seeing how banks could modify fixed rate loans while the current dollar still exists, but I don't doubt they would try. Maybe they would attempt to attach "fees" or "taxes" to our loan payments. Do you have any links to this threads or any outside sources you may be aware of?

[bankmining]

I have read more than a few contributions by various writers who know someone in the legal depts of some of the big banks. If there is a hyperinflationary event they plan to enforce mortgage loan modifications which would take away the "advantages" of paying strong debts with weaker dollars... so that they stay even, but you lose. They KNOW this is going to happen, you can be sure they have planned contingencies to ensure they aren't ruined by it.

Agreed and would add that the banks would have the full support of a federal govt staffed with countless ex-bank execs in making sure that "something has to be done" to keep the largest banks afloat ("too big to fail"). The banksters aren't going to starve because the common man is waving a legal contract in front of them, they will find a way.

[TwoPenniesEarned]

A mortgage is nothing more than an asset backed security, as so many of us found out when our banks invested recklessly in bad mortgages and also sold them to us as "Asset Backed Commercial Paper". Many defaulted, and we paid to keep the banks afloat, despite their having defrauded us.

Giving the asset securing your personal paper to the bank is often fully allowable under the terms of your mortgage. They loved the real estate just as much as you when everyone got in bed with the property. It is fully within your rights to get out of bed before the bank. They got out of bed on ABCP long before you as the taxpayer. In fact, you're still in bed with it, care of Fanny and Freddie, the Troubled Asset Recovery Program, Quantitative Easing, QE2, and AIG.

Banks are businesses owned by big boys. There's no point in turning the debate into a personal morality story. If the mortgage was done on a handshake, that's your personal bond. If it w done on reams of legalese, then the default provision is a perfectly acceptable outcome as contemplated in the agreement.

[TXBullion]

Also, bleeding 100 a month on a rental property is far from a bad situation. What are the terms of your adjustment? (which rate does it take) You might end up with lower interest rates in November than you have now. Would it maybe lessen it to a break even situation? Can you refi, or lock into a fixed with your current lender if you explain the situation? With out knowing the rest of your situation, defaulting because of a 100 loss per door on two properties sounds ridiculous. I agree with pennysaved, get advice, barrytrot, your word is important and I hope not to be in a situation with the gun to my head. You make the argument about how banks pull the money from thin air and use this as justification for strategic default. Would you use the same argument if you were netting 100 per month on each property. I think you are looking for a way, and justification, to get out of bad investments that really arent bad. Heres a previous post of yours that reminded me of your entrepreneurial spirit.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3519&hilit=idahocopper+beefjerky#p30804

I was never a good saver. During the 1980s run-up of Ag, with each weekly paycheck I bought $100 worth of bullion rounds or bars for about $8 to $10 per oz, then sold them a few days before the peak at $35. But I eventually spent that money down to nothing.

I bought my 1st house at 19, my 2nd at 21, then sold both of them to buy a bigger house on 1/2 acre with a pool. All of them were roommate/party type houses. I had a great time. When I was 25, I sold the big house and hitchhiked on sailboats from California to Australia, blue-water sailing for 8 months of island-hopping, then living in Oz working casually for another 10 months.

I came to realize that I had enjoyed partying away my 20s and also knew that a cluey guy could put a retirement together in his 40s decade, and retire at 50. So I partied away my 30s as well, always living close to the beach in San Diego, and/or living on my own sailboats.

When I was 38, I began my Internet business and by the time I was 48 I had quit my day job and relied solely on my Internet biz. I now consider myself to be semi-retired, working about an hour per day, checking emails, stuffing packages, and visiting the post office. I reckon I can do that into my 80s and still consider myself retired.

So long as I put a lot product in the vehicle, can get my email daily, and visit a post office; I can travel anywhere in the US for 10 to 14 day road trips. When I want to exercise my passport, I can put the biz on hold for a bit more than a week, without a lot of real consequences.

And finally, when the SHTF, I will have between 100 and 200 pounds of fresh & tasty beef jerky on hand. I'll quit selling it on the Internet and trade it for silver or other goods from my neighbors, or eat it myself. The Ring of Fire red-hot pepper flavor jerky will be sold first.

That is how I got to my retirement plan, with http://www.beefjerky.com I'm 53 now.

Why not use your time wisely and figure out how to create an income stream to offset your 100$ loss per month per door rather than how to get out of an obligation you committed too.

[IdahoCopper]

Banks are businesses owned by big boys. There's no point in turning the debate into a personal morality story. If the mortgage was done on a handshake, that's your personal bond. If it w done on reams of legalese, then the default provision is a perfectly acceptable outcome as contemplated in the agreement.

Exactly correct.


This thread started with a simple question, "Is it time to pull the trigger?" No real answers to that question had been posted, with the exception of several who say "Never pull it!" They gave good and valid reasons why they answered that way. Thank you for the sage and moral advice.

So the question stands. Please remember that I have only asked a question, and have not acted.

How does one know that it is time to begin drastic, irreversible actions to protect oneself and family? When it is time to bug out? When the freeways are jammed with cars, all 8 lanes pouring out of the city, or is it weeks or months before that?

When do you wind up your city affairs, and head for your cabin?

My question remains. We all will do what is best for us, doing whatever it takes to salvage whatever we can to improve our chances after the SHTF. Some will pack up their integrity and honor and flee with that intact. Others may not include that stuff in their baggage.

Acting earlier, rather than later can make a huge difference in family survival. When is too early, and when is too late?

"When the ship (of state) is sinking, what is a life preserver? Anything that floats."

Today, is the ship flooding, or is it merely approaching another reef in a storm? Will our brave and heroic Captain Obama steer us clear to safety?

[IdahoCopper]

Also, bleeding 100 a month on a rental property is far from a bad situation. What are the terms of your adjustment? (which rate does it take) You might end up with lower interest rates in November than you have now. Would it maybe lessen it to a break even situation? Can you refi, or lock into a fixed with your current lender if you explain the situation? With out knowing the rest of your situation, defaulting because of a 100 loss per door on two properties sounds ridiculous. I agree with pennysaved, get advice, barrytrot, your word is important and I hope not to be in a situation with the gun to my head. You make the argument about how banks pull the money from thin air and use this as justification for strategic default. Would you use the same argument if you were netting 100 per month on each property. I think you are looking for a way, and justification, to get out of bad investments that really arent bad. Heres a previous post of yours that reminded me of your entrepreneurial spirit.

http://realcent.org/viewtopic.php?f=17& ... rky#p30804

I was never a good saver. During the 1980s run-up of Ag, with each weekly paycheck I bought $100 worth of bullion rounds or bars for about $8 to $10 per oz, then sold them a few days before the peak at $35. But I eventually spent that money down to nothing.

I bought my 1st house at 19, my 2nd at 21, then sold both of them to buy a bigger house on 1/2 acre with a pool. All of them were roommate/party type houses. I had a great time. When I was 25, I sold the big house and hitchhiked on sailboats from California to Australia, blue-water sailing for 8 months of island-hopping, then living in Oz working casually for another 10 months.

I came to realize that I had enjoyed partying away my 20s and also knew that a cluey guy could put a retirement together in his 40s decade, and retire at 50. So I partied away my 30s as well, always living close to the beach in San Diego, and/or living on my own sailboats.

When I was 38, I began my Internet business and by the time I was 48 I had quit my day job and relied solely on my Internet biz. I now consider myself to be semi-retired, working about an hour per day, checking emails, stuffing packages, and visiting the post office. I reckon I can do that into my 80s and still consider myself retired.

So long as I put a lot product in the vehicle, can get my email daily, and visit a post office; I can travel anywhere in the US for 10 to 14 day road trips. When I want to exercise my passport, I can put the biz on hold for a bit more than a week, without a lot of real consequences.

And finally, when the SHTF, I will have between 100 and 200 pounds of fresh & tasty beef jerky on hand. I'll quit selling it on the Internet and trade it for silver or other goods from my neighbors, or eat it myself. The Ring of Fire red-hot pepper flavor jerky will be sold first.

That is how I got to my retirement plan, with http://www.beefjerky.com I'm 53 now.

Why not use your time wisely and figure out how to create an income stream to offset your 100$ loss per month per door rather than how to get out of an obligation you committed too.

The motivation is not merely relieving myself of the $100 per month rent/mortgage shortfall.

I see the signs that the endgame has begun, and I see my $1800 per month pouring into a rathole that is doomed to fail, and fail completely.

The question is, is it time to act in prep to the signs of the disaster, or shall I let the normalcy bias rule my actions instead?

[TXBullion]

The motivation is not merely relieving myself of the $100 per month rent/mortgage shortfall.

I see the signs that the endgame has begun, and I see my $1800 per month pouring into a rathole that is doomed to fail, and fail completely.

The question is, is it time to act in prep to the signs of the disaster, or shall I let the normalcy bias rule my actions instead?

Whatever you do decide let us know. This has been a good posting on a topic that we will be seeing more frequently IMOP......

[neilgin1]

All the signs are pointing to the rapid collapse phase happening much sooner than later.

The big question is, "Is it time to pull the trigger?" Is it time to abandon any hope of a national economic turnaround, and begin to do what is best to prepare for the disaster; regardless of any potential long-term consequences if things do not go significantly bad?

.

Idaho, i havent read any of the other responses...i just remember the other day, when you said you knew of 500 offerings in the Redoubt, and thought that was pretty neat, coz we gotta Raymundo over there.

you're wiser than i, i just was blessed enough to sneak under the wire, and buy my first property in a different Redoubt. my "read", spoke humbly, is that there will be no turnaround, pull the trigger, prep for the worst, keep the Faith, maintain our bearings, and love fearlessly and without abandon, and in that spirit, i'll quit procrastinating, go take garbage to the town dump, and do some more splitting...oh yeh, and get a pork roast out the freezer.
with all respect, neil

[OneBiteAtATime]

The question is, is it time to act in prep to the signs of the disaster, or shall I let the normalcy bias rule my actions instead?

I get it. I know where you are and I struggle with this very question all the time. I believe we are looking at years rather than decades - and likely months rather than years.

I found myself yelling at my son, my precious boy about something that "cost money" that he was wasting. Shampoo I think it was. Half a freakin bottle at a time - don't get me going.... but my bride came in to stop the situation - I'm scared of what's coming because I don't believe I have the time or $ to be completely prepared. In my twisted mind the wasted product could have been better spent on provisions, which is true, but I was letting my fear cause me to act in ways that I don't want to act.

This was about 8 or 9 months ago. And I'm not talking about scolding.... I mean red-faced, spit flying, vein-bulging YELLING at the boy over some silly soap. I saw myself in the mirror and was ashamed. I don't want to be remembered by my son as he saw me that night. And it was because of my damned paranoia in regards to the macro-economy which I have no control over whatsoever. I'm not saying you are letting fear cause you to act in ways you normally wouldn't. I believe you are asking a VERY SMART question here.

God, if you guys could look inside my mind - I'm not saying that you are Idaho, But I know I AM SCARED AS HELL! I am doing all I believe I can do short of flipping the desk over.

For me. It isn't time yet. It may be for you. For me it isn't time yet. As that time approaches, and more and more people begin casting off normalcy, that has to have a snowball effect of some sort. This is rambly and I hope you don't think I was attacking last night - just giving my perspective. It's been a hard half-decade for the OneBite household.

..........the cursor has been blinking for 20 minutes now.... maybe I'll just hit the Submit button.

[neilgin1]

i'm still procrastinating, coz i love the discussions on this forum. (better than hauling garbage, which i WILL do in a sec...okay mom!)

i just read thru this whole thread and just BREAKS my heart...truly does.

i see Barry's stand, and i concur in the message, thats why all my years on the trading floor, i never stole or engaged in any of the vileness inherent in that world. after that i was a "free lancer", therefore i could never predict my income stream, and never bought property, always rented. Oct of 10, i got blessed, and was able to know exactly my income, and THEN i went to the Credit Union up here, when i found my Land, and we configured an IN-HOUSE 10 year note fixed at 5.5%, put 20% down, and there i be. The Credit Union here is different, my loan officer is a friend, she's like a neat older sister to me, her boss is a friend of mine. When you walk into the five branches of CU up here, it "feels" different...its real people, and we all "own" it, besides you have high corn, bean, and dairy prices, and that money comes into the CU. The loan they gave me has not been or will be, commodtized and sold off. These buildings up here, the woods, the tillable will NEVER be sold, God willing...my boy and his mother know its their inheritance...i told him this, this is your inheritance, so that i can rest easy, knowing you will NEVER be homeless, this Land was bought by my blood and toil...now i understand how ancient Israel was so ardent for the Land, God gave it to them.

this thread breaks my heart, coz i see how so many good people, got pulled into the RE trade, and now a lot of folk are getting hurt,and that breaks my heart.

i also can understand Idaho's dilema, and i do believe, Barry, that he is a man of integrity, after reading many of his posts. i dont believe he would even contemplate such, if his back, his very survival was pushed agaisnt the wall. Some guys aint built to be victims, and it seems to me he is not one of them, a "victim". My feeling is, if Idaho thought he could REASON with the bankers, and reconfigure a do able solution,. he would....but some of the banks and bankers have proven to be so uncaring, so greedy, so myopic, it would be an exercise in futility to reason with them...BECAUSE THEY JUST DONT CARE...thats what its come down to, all of it, leadership, all the institutions we were taught to respect, have proven themselves, UNWORTHY of such respect, by their actions. Its like the Book of Judges, "every man saw to do as he saw fit" (i'm parapharsing, correct me if i'm wrong)...and thats a tragic place to be.
i believe with my whole heart, that Idaho will do what he feels is right, guided by What is right, Who is right...we just got to pray for one another during these most difficult times, we are being refined now by fire, and we'll come out stronger, God willing....thats the Belief i hang onto. May God bless you ALL, neil

[neilgin1]

The question is, is it time to act in prep to the signs of the disaster, or shall I let the normalcy bias rule my actions instead?

God, if you guys could look inside my mind - I'm not saying that you are Idaho, But I know I AM SCARED AS HELL! I am doing all I believe I can do short of flipping the desk over.

For me. It isn't time yet. It may be for you. For me it isn't time yet. As that time approaches, and more and more people begin casting off normalcy, that has to have a snowball effect of some sort. This is rambly and I hope you don't think I was attacking last night - just giving my perspective. It's been a hard half-decade for the OneBite household.

..........the cursor has been blinking for 20 minutes now.... maybe I'll just hit the Submit button.

OneBite....you got me crying...not crying crying, but you got me tearing up...for real. Coz i know that feeling...."scared"...i know that feeling, snapping at our precious ones, and my heart is ripping apart for you. i know these are just words, but if i was an uber rich dude, all you;d have to do is PM me, and i'd make "you good"....but i aint,,,,but what i got i'll offer you is this, my prayers, may they ascend to the Heavenlies like incense...and no prayer returns void...and i'll offer you an antedote, about what happened to me onetime, and i'll try and make it short...trading crude oil, making GOOD money, for me and selected friends...overtraded and got nailed BUT GOOD...lost everyhting in less than hour, and then some. the walls turned black, i either wanted to eat a pistol, or get on the phone and get some REAL drugs and stay in a cottony bliss for four days, but i hadda take the boy to karate...called his mother attempting to get out of this committemnt...told her the whole story, and she said to me, "Neily, dont look back, dont look ahead, and when you get scared, just ask God, "God please be with me"...now go be a father and take your son to karate"....One Cent, i didnt eat a pistol, i didnt get baked...but i leaned on that prayer for days, and at a certain point, God just CAME DOWN and filled me, and changed me, forever. It was something else..because when i felt that fear, i would plead that simple prayer, "Please God be with me"...and almost supernaturally this peace would fill my soul...driving about the poison....NOW, i'm crying...just try that simple prayer...see what happens..in the meantime, i'm with you in prayer...your tears are my tears...much love, neil