Government sniffing of our tracking threads/numbers

[HPMBTT]

Not sure if this topic has been discussed before, as I couldn't find it anywhere, so here goes...

Some of the tracking threads are great and some of the finds that RC folks find in the wild are absolutely amazing (ie: Hoard's birthday box). I absolutely enjoy reading them. I am like most of you, in that I go through thousands of coins in an effort to find those small (silver/copper) treasures. I am still blown away by how clueless most Americans are, in that they don't know the meaning of real money, ie precious metals, silver/copper and so on...and that they don't keep all the silver/copper that they find in circulation etc.

I have always wanted to post my finds in these threads, as I go through some serious coin (Hoard knows) and feel that I can give some of you top guys (CardsnCoins, beauanderos) a real run for your money (no pun intended). Call me the tin foil hat type if you want, but what holds me back from posting my regular finds is that I don't want anyone (Govt or individual person) to know what I have found, as I consider it to be poor OPSEC. Sure, I'll tell a couple of my trusted friends now and then and will even do a Show & Tell story at the local coin club occasionally about my finds (silver/copper or other)...but any significant/large finds are, to me..well, nobody's business except my own. There, I said it.

So let's look at this realistically. Even for the top folks that are doing some serious volume where the finds are substantial and rewards are numbering in the thousands (in FRN's) per month/year/whatever...could the goobermint come after an individual if they saw what kinds of things you were posting here in cyberspace? Is it possible? Could they even make it stick in a court of law, for (IRS) tax purposes? Ex: just because I type it here in cyberspace doesn't mean it's totally true. Even if they could, initial thoughts are that the profits (if you could even call them that legally) couldn't be taxed anyway until the time of a 'sale' etc. In other words, does the goobermint even care, or are we such a small/tiny group here with such small numbers that it doesn't even matter and they won't waste their time, as they have bigger fish to fry etc. How worried are you about posting your silver finds??

Of course, all the USA finds are legal tender coins, so my first instinct is no (I'm not worried about foreign coins). But still, I really would appreciate hearing from some of the regular sorters on this issue, and specifically, some of those who post their findings in tracking threads (especially silver). heck, perhaps I should even start a poll on the subject.

Thanks for listening.

[ardorlan]

My understanding (I AM NOT AN TAX ADVISOR) is things are worth what it costs you to get it, and what you sell it for. for Taxes.

Since you get your Silver Finds for Free no Taxes are Due, If you keep a good record of this it could even by pass death taxes.

Once you sell your silver those gains minus your cost(you could keep a notebook of dates for gas) would be your profits and you would owe taxes on that amount.

So from the way I understand it, until you sell you don't owe anything.

[ardorlan]

I would still be worried about posting encase they passed some kind of gold/silver confiscation act, or attracting robbers.

[highroller4321]

My understanding (I AM NOT AN TAX ADVISOR) is things are worth what it costs you to get it, and what you sell it for. for Taxes.

Since you get your Silver Finds for Free no Taxes are Due, If you keep a good record of this it could even by pass death taxes.

Once you sell your silver those gains minus your cost(you could keep a notebook of dates for gas) would be your profits and you would owe taxes on that amount.

So from the way I understand it, until you sell you don't owe anything.

Technically you paid face value for the coin so anything you make off of it is techincally taxable.

[ardorlan]

each Halve cost 50 cents
each Halve as a asset is worth what it cost 50 Cents. (We are not Marking to Market) (We are historical costs accounting)

so your write off 50 cents per halve which is equal to asset worth which is 50 cents. Profit/Lost = Zero.

Once you sell it, your asset worth will change to whatever you sold it for minus your cost of the transaction (ebay fee).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For example –

a company acquires an asset in year 1 for $100;
the asset is still held at the end of year 1, when its market value is $120;
the company sells the asset in year 2 for $115.

At the end year 1 the asset is recorded in the balance sheet at cost of $100. No account is taken of the increase in value from $100 to $120 in year 1. In year 2 the company records a sale of $115. The cost of sales is $100, being the historical cost of the asset. This gives rise to a profit of $15 which is wholly recognised in year 2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_cost

[HD-Daddy]

I feel you man! But at what point do we draw the line. I can't wait to share some "good finds" stories, with Realcenters or close friends. Number 1: I can educate folks who I do care about (real Money versus Fiat). Secondly the Gobermint don't own me, they think they do but I think otherwise.(Patriotic). I love giving my finds away as Birthday, Wedding and anniversaries, Baptismism, gifts you name it, I've done it. Lastly, I refuse to be fearful for educating myself and family, and feel it is my God giving right to do what is neccesary to protect, secure, and take care of my family. If Taxes come due I suggest you pay with FRN's no big deal. Render to Ceaser what is Ceasars. The rest is Finders Keepers! Whew I feel better.

[highroller4321]

each Halve cost 50 cents
each Halve as a asset is worth what it cost 50 Cents. (We are not Marking to Market) (We are historical costs accounting)

so your write off 50 cents per halve which is equal to asset worth which is 50 cents. Profit/Lost = Zero.

Once you sell it, your asset worth will change to whatever you sold it for minus your cost of the transaction (ebay fee).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For example –

a company acquires an asset in year 1 for $100;
the asset is still held at the end of year 1, when its market value is $120;
the company sells the asset in year 2 for $115.

At the end year 1 the asset is recorded in the balance sheet at cost of $100. No account is taken of the increase in value from $100 to $120 in year 1. In year 2 the company records a sale of $115. The cost of sales is $100, being the historical cost of the asset. This gives rise to a profit of $15 which is wholly recognised in year 2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_cost

I think you missed a key point in my statement.....anything you make off of it is taxable

[ardorlan]

Oh I totally missed that. sorry

[fasteddy]

yep kinda like posting on FB or other social site that you are going out or will be away vacationing. Might as well post...Hey look I am gone for two weeks....Do you really trust all your friends and their friends, I don't. Oh by the way I just got back from vacationing in Colorado....my neighbors didn't even know I was gone except my trusted neighbor. I used to post to Country's silver finds thread but have discontinued that. Maybe it was all the skunk boxes....maybe not....

[theo]

I agree with the others, the Government does not tax you for holding most assets (the main exception being real estate). You only get taxed when you sell your asset for a capital gain.

Now on the subject of government monitoring what about Ebay or other internet sources (APMEX. . . etc)? Couldn't the government embark on a secret Nixonian tracking initiative to identify those who hold as little as 1000 oz of silver and/or 25 oz of gold. If I am high a level beauacrat (sp?) who is realistic about where the dollar is headed, I'd want to know who has the goods.

[Mossy]

beauacrat (sp?)

I think there's a "p" on the end.

Gov't workers get paid for the process, not the results. I doubt if any are interested in digging through the records right now, not without having that sort of thing on budget. (note below)

That is not to say they will not in the future, and various merchants, ISPs, etc are now required to keep records for at least a little while.

(note: Some agencies have been keeping records related to firearm ownership in spite of such records being illegal and the money not being officially budgeted. That is a matter of "religious" belief shared between the bureaucrats and certain politicians who earmark funds without coming out and saying what the earmark is for. There is no such "religious" belief regarding PMs. For now.)

[schockergd]

You could always post as a image, and have it called via PHP in a way that if government IP tries to read the message it's blocked

[didou]

You could always post as a image, and have it called via PHP in a way that if government IP tries to read the message it's blocked

Gov know how to use proxy and it's all falling apart.
Realcent is also recorded on Internet Archive and probably on google, msn, yahoo, ...

We could suggest to use noarchive and nosnippet as meta tag to prevent some robots from putting the content in cache. Reducing the DNS timeout to prevent it caching for a long time. And robots.txt directive to prevent some robots to record it and archive it. Build a small script to erase all webserver/dns logs (or not save them), ...It could help.
But it's all voluntary. No robots is forced to comply with rules you provide them. As long as the site is up and running they can find out. Although it could be used in court later on if you said noarchive and they did archive it, any warrant or data from that maybe invalidated in court later on.

Maybe these tracking threads could be use to get a warrant for searching people home. After than they could find more item ....

[JerrySpringer]

I think they would go after CL first. Seems inevitable that the IRS would set up sting transactions to net tax dodgers of precious metal sales. The clamping down has happened on Ebay. I am not even sure how much compliance you can expect from the average CL seller, but Ebay leaves a paper trail so there is the record that can be retrieved by the fed. My gut feeling is that you could do transactions of a somewhat moderate amount and maybe get a letter a few years later asking you why you did not report your PM sales. I am wary of selling anything without having a cost basis receipt nowadays as a result. Barter stuff, then maybe it less visible? If I exchange a troy ounce for some food, should I have to declare that? How would that appear on a tax form? One troy ounce bought me 20 chickens, do I write that down as a gain subject to collectibles tax? Is that how far the IRS can/will go?

[Morsecode]

Can't imagine paying taxes on the sale of anything that doesn't generate some form of 1099. Why be a volunteer?

[scrapper2010]

I don't think they could ever hold you to anything that you posted in the tracking threads because there is no proof that you actually got them roll hunting.

[NHsorter]

I don't think they could ever hold you to anything that you posted in the tracking threads because there is no proof that you actually got them roll hunting.

I think that they would try to use anything that the possibly can. Even if something is not admissible in court, it is still information that they will see and that they could use to try to pin you down in a deposition or even just as something that further convinces them that you did cheat on your taxes and therefore give them incentive to dig deeper.

So if PM's are money and they can tax you on profits and losses, who is to say that I can't get a nice big write off at the end of the year for inflation depreciating my cash holdings?

I wish I had to worry about if I should post my great finds or not. I have not had any great finds. They can come and check out all of the dirty coppers and the couple rolls of war nicks that I have pulled from circ.

[ardorlan]

If you keep a journal and I personal think the tracking thread is good enough(provided it is not deleted), This should be fine for your tax records as proof, a personal journal is better. Journals for taxes have a long standing of being upheld as proof provided the entry are dated with in a few days of the transaction. Further more you getting the Halve for face value is best case for the IRS, as it reduces your cost to hold the asset.

For example the IRS would much rather you get something for 50 cents, Then to get something for 4 dollars.
as this would directly relate to your gains, The 50 cent example generating 3 dollars and 50 cents more in taxable gains.

\

[scrapper2010]

The tracking threads, as opposed to a personal journal have an element of competition. I could be wrong but I don't think the IRS would use something like that as evidence.

[IdahoCopper]

I found this to be interesting:

http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/c ... abaf&hl=en

[HPMBTT]

If you keep a journal and I personal think the tracking thread is good enough(provided it is not deleted), This should be fine for your tax records as proof, a personal journal is better. Journals for taxes have a long standing of being upheld as proof provided the entry are dated with in a few days of the transaction. Further more you getting the Halve for face value is best case for the IRS, as it reduces your cost to hold the asset.

For example the IRS would much rather you get something for 50 cents, Then to get something for 4 dollars.
as this would directly relate to your gains, The 50 cent example generating 3 dollars and 50 cents more in taxable gains.

\

Ardorlan, you make a good point here. However, how does one prove what price they purchased some silver at, if a receipt isn't given? For example, members of coin clubs all over the country commonly buy/sell stuff at their own monthly club auctions and then may re-sell the same thing 6-12 months down the road (for a small profit/loss). How would one prove what price they purchased it at? Sure, I suppose the secretaries of the clubs keep some sort of basic record of all auction sales, but I don't think that's necessarily good enough, if the IRS were to press their case; for example, they could simply 'disallow' it if there is no actual receipt. Therefore, the IRS could say that one could only claim it as being purchased (or found) at face value and then base your profits off of that (.50 for a half dollar etc). Very unfair in my opinion.

[AGCoinHunter]

Unfortunate boating accidents happen all the time. I really dont know why I happened to have all my silver stored on my boat...

[ardorlan]

If you keep a journal and I personal think the tracking thread is good enough(provided it is not deleted), This should be fine for your tax records as proof, a personal journal is better. Journals for taxes have a long standing of being upheld as proof provided the entry are dated with in a few days of the transaction. Further more you getting the Halve for face value is best case for the IRS, as it reduces your cost to hold the asset.

For example the IRS would much rather you get something for 50 cents, Then to get something for 4 dollars.
as this would directly relate to your gains, The 50 cent example generating 3 dollars and 50 cents more in taxable gains.

\

Ardorlan, you make a good point here. However, how does one prove what price they purchased some silver at, if a receipt isn't given? For example, members of coin clubs all over the country commonly buy/sell stuff at their own monthly club auctions and then may re-sell the same thing 6-12 months down the road (for a small profit/loss). How would one prove what price they purchased it at? Sure, I suppose the secretaries of the clubs keep some sort of basic record of all auction sales, but I don't think that's necessarily good enough, if the IRS were to press their case; for example, they could simply 'disallow' it if there is no actual receipt. Therefore, the IRS could say that one could only claim it as being purchased (or found) at face value and then base your profits off of that (.50 for a half dollar etc). Very unfair in my opinion.

In my post you quoted I was speaking under the context of only finding silver from searching rolls, once you move into other transitional types receipts are the way to go.

I agree if your paying more then face value best thing to do is use a credit card (although I would still be worried about confiscation) Cash payment with a receipt should be good enough for the IRS, If trading in person you can bring your own receipt book, have both party sign the receipt.

Journal Entry with no Receipt, written close to the transaction and data as such with the amount under $75 per transaction should also good enough proof.

Journal Entry with no receipt written close to the transaction for amounts over $75 due require receipts, although I believe testimonies from both parties evolved should meet court requirements, so in your Journal Entry if you can include the name of the other party with their contact information. (however this is court requirements and not IRS requirements and who wants to go to court?)

I also want to make one more note
The IRS could argue that any silver found was given, and did not have the cost to the owner of face value to acquire, but I think personally Journal Entry alone would be enough to meet face value acquisition argument.

[uthminsta]

But I don't own any precious metals... so I guess there's no problem.

[rainsonme]

Here is a counter strategy. If you intend to pass silver or gold on to your heirs, and your estate will likely be under the tax threshold, you might want to include the silver and gold you have in your estsate so that it takes on the stepped up basis, making it a low tax event if your heirs need to sell it later. If you bought or obtained a silver dollar at $15 a few years back, if you died today and it was in your estate, it would take today's valuation of around $32. If you heirs needed to sell it later at say $40, they would only owe taxes on the $8 difference. Just a thought that might give your heirs more options. Otherwise, if they sell the coins in a recorded manner, with a low basis or worse no record of the basis, they would owe taxes on the full amount.

Just a thought. I don't own any silver or gold myself, so its all hypothetical for me.