getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for stocks

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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby shinnosuke » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:29 am

68Camaro wrote:For those of you that believe the USA can survive anything, consider this below, again, which has been around in emails. If you've seen it, worth a repeat read. If not, keep this in mind:

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's - and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.


Preceding the good Dr. Tyler by 37 years was the Frenchman, Frederic Bastiat, who warned the Socialists in his country of the folly of their actions. Unfortunately, he was ignored. Only history has proven him (and others correct). Bastiat described the many forms of "legal plunder" which are proposed by government officials: tariffs, benefits, subsidies, encouragements, progressive taxation, public schools, guaranteed jobs, minimum wages, free credit, etc. In our day, Obama describes these as: spread the wealth. It is simply using the power of government to take from one and give to another. If you or I did it, it would be called theft no matter how good our intentions.

Bastiat's short essay, The Law, and our relationship with government all boils down to this: "The question of legal plunder must be settled once and for all, and there are only three ways to settle it:
1. The few plunder the many.
2. Everybody plunders everybody.
3. Nobody plunders anybody.
We must make our choice among limited plunder, universal plunder, and no plunder. (end quote)

If the population can vote themselves benefits from the government, they will. They will! It's human nature. They simply will. Our Founding Fathers were wise to limit the franchise to land owners. They knew that citizens who have no stake in the economy will gladly vote themselves benefits from the productive portion of society. The strength of the Constitution is what has allowed the United States to exist as long as it has. But that strength has been chipped away via amendments and executive orders, by agency regulations and the accumulation of power in government until our nation can hardly stand. The Federal Reserve has destroyed our currency. So, yeah, I don't know if we've got 1 year or 5, but this cannot continue and Americans still stand up at the beginning of sporting events and sing, "the land of the free and the home of the brave."

As for our military strength, it's on a continuum, not static. Are we getting stronger? Weaker? Do we still have the will to use our nuclear weapons? Who among you really knows the answers to these questions? (For the record, I am against the use of our nuclear arsenal. I hate war and believe it should only be taken up, grudgingly, for defensive purposes, after much deliberation and negotiation.)
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them... (Thomas Jefferson)
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby neilgin1 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:01 pm

68Camaro wrote:For those of you that believe the USA can survive anything, consider this below, again, which has been around in emails. If you've seen it, worth a repeat read. If not, keep this in mind:

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
The Obituary follows:

Born 1776, Died 2008

It doesn't hurt to read this several times.

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last
Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's - and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

this is the point where i get off the bus, because now we're going in the direction of a "polis"..."political" discussion, and such discussions these days rarely end well. from my friends on the right, i hear "Obama is the devil"...from my friends on the left, for years, "Bush/Cheney is the devil"...i got friends on the right, all day long that TV on to Fox News...friends on the left, all day long that TV on to MSNBC....and in these homes, so much anger, and they want to suck me into a "discussion" from what side of the fence they lay in, either right or left, and i just shrug, play stupid and say "i dont know"....i'm not going to be dragged down the sinkhole of fear and anger, and people's "opinion's"....i got one set of friends, MSNBC on all day, and they scream about the "evil corporations", when the male of that household done worked for a major corp, and now collects a RIPE pension, and he voted for Obama, yet sprinkles what comes out of his evil maw with such words as "tarbabies"...i dont go over to that house no mo...other houses i go to, who claim to be followers of Jesus, and readers of Scripture, yet forget Scriptural admonitions about protecting the "alien"and "sojourners", the "fatherless" and "widows" in the land, and i know this because they get all amped up about what you refer to as "criminal invaders", ie undocumented latino's, who are just doing the [shucks] jobs no white boys will do, and fruthermore the majority of these latinos are very solid families, and both mama and daddy in these families are hard workers, a "value" i thought "value voters" embrace...evidently not. as far as these "government dependents"...i know TOO MANY good men, who CANNOT find jobs, who live under the weight and burden of SUDDENLY not being able to find work, and the humiliation of relying on govt checks and/or the further humiliation of getting food stamps , just their children can eat, while another class of workers...fortunate enough to sit under the umbrella of the defense industry, which is always a growth industry, cast scorn on those not so fortunate. thats why i dont enjoy "political discussions", because what comes from the right or left, fills the air thick with so much hypocrisy , you can cut it with a knife, and all my knifes, blades, etc, are razor sharp, coz i know how to use a Whet Stone...and thats all i got to say.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby neilgin1 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:33 pm

shinnosuke wrote:
If the population can vote themselves benefits from the government, they will. They will! It's human nature. They simply will. Our Founding Fathers were wise to limit the franchise to land owners. They knew that citizens who have no stake in the economy will gladly vote themselves benefits from the productive portion of society. The strength of the Constitution is what has allowed the United States to exist as long as it has.


i take my earlier statement back...i just got a LEEETLE bit more to say.......you're saying right here, that you believe only land owners should be allowed to vote?....you have to be kidding me.....this is a joke, right? You actually mean, that i put my life on the line in uniform, to protect your democratic freedom to vote, and you're of the opinion that would "limit the franchise to land owners"?

Hey bud, while we're at the trough here, pretending its 1775-76, maybe we should count negroes as 3/5ths of a human being? sound good?...and the Emanicipation Proclaimation?....lets toss that Constitutional heresy right out the window, right?...and WOMEN VOTING?!?...oh goodness gracious, thats insanity, everybody knows a woman aint got a lick of sense, besides, she doesnt own land, HER HUSBAND DOES, so that "disqualifies" any female, right?

you GOT to be joking around. The framers of the Constitution dropped the ball, BIG TIME, when they failed to deal with the demonic institution of slavery in America, and this nation paid and is paying a hideous price, fore the act of slave holding and man thievery is the spirit of anti-christ, plain and simple....and for any professed follower of Jesus to parse it any other way, is sinning against God Almighty, just like those greedy man theives did, back in the day. If i had lived in the 1830's, i would have joined with one of my heroes, the Rev John Rankin, who wrote the BOOK on this national sin, "Letters on Slavery", and become an on fire abolitionist, myself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rankin_(abolitionist)

The Constitution is a living document, so before i lose my temper, i think i'll fast awhile from this forum
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby Thogey » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:43 pm

Don't loose your temper neil, and before you fast.

Everything you wrote makes sense but:
Question, what is the solution the the problem of voters voting on nothing other than gaining entitlements.
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby Treetop » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:06 pm

Thogey wrote:Don't loose your temper neil, and before you fast.

Everything you wrote makes sense but:
Question, what is the solution the the problem of voters voting on nothing other than gaining entitlements.


im not neil, but I see what neil is saying AND I see what shinnosuke meant. there is a solid reason why only landowners could vote. Though the slavery stuff is another matter.

Anyway, overspending has been a part of our issue. People want to form collective let them do WITHIN the context of liberty in the constitution, meaning YOU make your own collectives and leave ME be....

So heres my thinking. We cant continue on this path although many apparently believe their TVs that we can. So lets make EVERYONE a landowner!!!! their are a few logistical issues but its workable, and between BLM land and other government holding we have more then enough land to swing this. with the right knowledge and methods you can farm and build a home nearly anywhere. although in drier area people would need some time to get it going and need a bit more land...

those who like collectives, let them lump their new land together and build their little utopias without feeling the need to make me join their dance... Theres more to it, and I realize logistics would limit this somewhat and that not everyone would even want it (they can sell their land) heck i know this wouldnt even happen because most folks wouldnt want it. But i wish they would... I think this could solve many of our issues all at once....
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby IdahoCopper » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:07 pm

Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job or start a business.

Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women Norplant birth control implants or tubal ligation. Then, we'll test recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine and document all tattoos and piercings. If you want to reproduce or use drugs, alcohol, smoke or get tats and piercings, then get a job or start a business.

Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks? You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your "home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job, or start a business, and get your own place.

In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo and speakers and put that money toward the "common good".

Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules. Before you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem," consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone's money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.

If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

AND While you are on Gov't subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Gov't welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job or start a business.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby Thogey » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:18 pm

IdahoCopper wrote:Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job or start a business.

Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women Norplant birth control implants or tubal ligation. Then, we'll test recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine and document all tattoos and piercings. If you want to reproduce or use drugs, alcohol, smoke or get tats and piercings, then get a job or start a business.

Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks? You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your "home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job, or start a business, and get your own place.

In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo and speakers and put that money toward the "common good".

Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules. Before you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem," consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone's money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.

If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

AND While you are on Gov't subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Gov't welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job or start a business.



I don't see anything wrong with any of this. My mom grew up in housing projects in the 1040's and 50's. She described them as barrack style Despite hard times she have never taken public assistance since, not even SS, and she's 70.

I can think of nothing more distateful than taking a government aid.
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby 68Camaro » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:24 pm

This thread is so all over the place that I'm done with it. Some good points in it, but also way too much missing the point and taking offense at things not even said.
In the game of Woke, the goal posts can be moved at any moment, the penalties will apply retroactively and claims of fairness will always lose out to the perpetual right to claim offense.... Bret Stephens
The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it. George Orwell.
We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. Ayn Rand.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby shinnosuke » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:05 pm

neilgin1 wrote:
shinnosuke wrote:
If the population can vote themselves benefits from the government, they will. They will! It's human nature. They simply will. Our Founding Fathers were wise to limit the franchise to land owners. They knew that citizens who have no stake in the economy will gladly vote themselves benefits from the productive portion of society. The strength of the Constitution is what has allowed the United States to exist as long as it has.


i take my earlier statement back...i just got a LEEETLE bit more to say.......you're saying right here, that you believe only land owners should be allowed to vote?....you have to be kidding me.....this is a joke, right? You actually mean, that i put my life on the line in uniform, to protect your democratic freedom to vote, and you're of the opinion that would "limit the franchise to land owners"?

Hey bud, while we're at the trough here, pretending its 1775-76, maybe we should count negroes as 3/5ths of a human being? sound good?...and the Emanicipation Proclaimation?....lets toss that Constitutional heresy right out the window, right?...and WOMEN VOTING?!?...oh goodness gracious, thats insanity, everybody knows a woman aint got a lick of sense, besides, she doesnt own land, HER HUSBAND DOES, so that "disqualifies" any female, right?

you GOT to be joking around. The framers of the Constitution dropped the ball, BIG TIME, when they failed to deal with the demonic institution of slavery in America, and this nation paid and is paying a hideous price, fore the act of slave holding and man thievery is the spirit of anti-christ, plain and simple....and for any professed follower of Jesus to parse it any other way, is sinning against God Almighty, just like those greedy man theives did, back in the day. If i had lived in the 1830's, i would have joined with one of my heroes, the Rev John Rankin, who wrote the BOOK on this national sin, "Letters on Slavery", and become an on fire abolitionist, myself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rankin_(abolitionist)

The Constitution is a living document, so before i lose my temper, i think i'll fast awhile from this forum


Fred and Margaret are down on their luck and living in a small apartment.
Alice is the mayor of their city and wants to get re-elected in November.
John is a landowner.

Alice seizes on a plan. If she enacts a law forcing John and all the other landowners to pay property taxes, she can secure Fred and Margaret's vote in the next election by offering the couple government assistance. Unfortunately, it's really this simple. Good intentions to help the less fortunate notwithstanding, our current system is rife with legal plunder.

There were plenty of American men in uniform against the British and Hessians who did not own land. Were they wrong to engage in those battles? They actually were fighting for a system that would give them the most independence, hence, the best chance to own land in the future. Many of those who fought for freedom from King George's arbitrary regulations were, like my ancestor Johannes Henke of Germany, the original immigrant to the colonies. They came to America because they were screwed out of a chance of independence in the Old World before they were even born.

I said nothing of slavery. I detest the system. I respect immensely our forefathers, but I never claimed they were perfect.

I said nothing in support of females being denied the right to vote. Besides, a woman could own land in the early days of the republic. My own family history research is full of examples of women inheriting the land of their recently deceased husbands or as wedding gifts from their fathers.

I am not trying to win a debate. I am simply pointing out that the decline of freedom begins when the government takes your wealth from you and gives it to another.

And with that, I will post no more in this thread.
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them... (Thomas Jefferson)
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby Treetop » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:18 pm

Wait a second... if everyone is dropping out of the thread... did I win??? :lol:
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby Treetop » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:22 pm

Treetop wrote:Wait a second... if everyone is dropping out of the thread... did I win??? :lol:


actually i barely even get play for the homesteading idea even on gardening forums.... just wait though until we trade all those BLM lands to china or someone else for our debts like allt he third world nations do with their resources after th "money changers" ripped their economies in half.... People will of wished they went into homesteading and had something to call theirs...

Oh yeah as good a lace as any to say I think the most evil tax is a tax on someones home or homestead!!!!
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby neilgin1 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:10 am

Shinn-san, 68 and anybody else i might have offended...forgive if i offended any of yall. i get hestitant on "discussing" politics, and i did, which is my mistake, coz i get too strident, and i sure am sorry. There's a certain camraderie we have, and i dont want to affect that good will in any way. That good will we have, is the thing thats important to me, as a poster on this site. neil
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby shinnosuke » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:16 am

neil, tears in my eyes, I appreciate your words. you are a friend. i hope to keep it that way.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby neilgin1 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:41 am

shinnosuke wrote:neil, tears in my eyes, I appreciate your words. you are a friend. i hope to keep it that way.


God willing, we will keep it that way, and thats joy, because we always keep that 2nd "Royal Commandment" to our hearts, which as you know is "love your neighbor as yourself", which i do, though from far away, but it feels like we're "in" each others living rooms, therefore its always best if i wipe the mud off my shoes before i come in.

i'd have tears in my eyes too, but my head's aching this morning, coz i was sinning last night. Got caught up with my ridge neighbors who gathered their camping trailers in the "lager", and they forced me (lol) to get my Barbados sipping rum and shot glasses, and i do believe they gave me some painkillers, which i warshed down with a couple shots of rum. i WAS in some pain, so.....i think i might have been driving my tractor, up and down the dirt ridge road, whooping and "yeehawing" at 1 in the morning, which everybody found enormously funny...it was one of those things i just felt i HAD to do. (i hope i made you smile at least, if not laugh) i dont hardly drink, so i'm kind of lightweight.

your brother, neil
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby Oakair » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:35 am

neilgin1 wrote:
shinnosuke wrote:neil, tears in my eyes, I appreciate your words. you are a friend. i hope to keep it that way.


God willing, we will keep it that way, and thats joy, because we always keep that 2nd "Royal Commandment" to our hearts, which as you know is "love your neighbor as yourself", which i do, though from far away, but it feels like we're "in" each others living rooms, therefore its always best if i wipe the mud off my shoes before i come in.

i'd have tears in my eyes too, but my head's aching this morning, coz i was sinning last night. Got caught up with my ridge neighbors who gathered their camping trailers in the "lager", and they forced me (lol) to get my Barbados sipping rum and shot glasses, and i do believe they gave me some painkillers, which i warshed down with a couple shots of rum. i WAS in some pain, so.....i think i might have been driving my tractor, up and down the dirt ridge road, whooping and "yeehawing" at 1 in the morning, which everybody found enormously funny...it was one of those things i just felt i HAD to do. (i hope i made you smile at least, if not laugh) i dont hardly drink, so i'm kind of lightweight.

your brother, neil


:lol:

Always a rough combo there, never had the chance to throw a tractor into the mix though!
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby 68Camaro » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:43 am

No offense taken, no need for apology. Sometimes it's just time to stand down for a bit when things run awry of intentions.
In the game of Woke, the goal posts can be moved at any moment, the penalties will apply retroactively and claims of fairness will always lose out to the perpetual right to claim offense.... Bret Stephens
The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it. George Orwell.
We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. Ayn Rand.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby neilgin1 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:10 pm

Oakair wrote:
neilgin1 wrote:
i'd have tears in my eyes too, but my head's aching this morning, coz i was sinning last night. Got caught up with my ridge neighbors who gathered their camping trailers in the "lager", and they forced me (lol) to get my Barbados sipping rum and shot glasses, and i do believe they gave me some painkillers, which i warshed down with a couple shots of rum. i WAS in some pain, so.....i think i might have been driving my tractor, up and down the dirt ridge road, whooping and "yeehawing" at 1 in the morning, which everybody found enormously funny...it was one of those things i just felt i HAD to do. (i hope i made you smile at least, if not laugh) i dont hardly drink, so i'm kind of lightweight.

your brother, neil


:lol:

Always a rough combo there, never had the chance to throw a tractor into the mix though!


yeh buddy, it takes it all to whole new low, at least i didnt tip her over, but i do want to hit the zerts, lube points with the grease gun, maybe change the oil, but i been putting that off, by lazing around on the forum and the internet in general....btw, my equally depraved neighbors, just called to see if i was alive, and to remind me, tonights the last night of partying, still got that half a bottle of rum left, hair of the dawg. yeehaw.
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Re: getting that feeling again.gonna be a gnarly 4thQ for st

Postby neilgin1 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:12 pm

68Camaro wrote:No offense taken, no need for apology. Sometimes it's just time to stand down for a bit when things run awry of intentions.


glad you didnt take offense 68, though i do believe i got a bit outta line.
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