PM's... when would you sell out?

[Treetop]

never said bear traps. again, i wont elaborate, but I know others who do similar things. Really cant be used against me either. If it was that bad You wouldnt even see me or know I was there. You will even think you found supplies along with, other things which look very much like known edibles both wild and domestic... that simply arent edible and will not sit well in the belly. But in that regard I go beyond most... i dont like bandits. Few bandits will make it past me even if they take me with them.

If you think physical dominance will out last knowledge, skill and people on home turf so to speak... well you imo have a lot to learn. Such folks simply will not last to long. Even in great numbers, each new place you encounter will thin the ranks. Some much more then others. Such folks will be malnourished, underfed, not thinking clearly. Forced to make fast decisions without knowing fully what they face. I believe you watched to many movies honestly.

[needler420]

never said bear traps. again, i wont elaborate, but I know others who do similar things. Really cant be used against me either. If it was that bad You wouldnt even see me or know I was there. You will even think you found supplies along with, other things which look very much like known edibles both wild and domestic... that simply arent edible and will not sit well in the belly. But in that regard I go beyond most... i dont like bandits. Few bandits will make it past me even if they take me with them.

If you think physical dominance will out last knowledge, skill and people on home turf so to speak... well you imo have a lot to learn. Such folks simply will not last to long. Even in great numbers, each new place you encounter will thin the ranks. Some much more then others. Such folks will be malnourished, underfed, not thinking clearly. Forced to make fast decisions without knowing fully what they face. I believe you watched to many movies honestly.

You're the one who said you booey trapped to prepare for SHTF wouldn't it be fair to say you are the one you watched too many movies. As I do nothing at all to prepare just laugh as those that do.


You make it sound like your on a big farm field making crop circles with boobey traps in them.


Its Mel Gibson The signs

[Treetop]

Never said I booby trapped anything... It wasnt movies that initiated me to grow my own food, I was going to do that before I ever realized it may be needed at some point. I do indeed think that a downfall of society is possible, but that comes from reading history, and seeing how we are currently responding to deep issues. along with knowing how fragile our food distribution system is. I never saw a movie on that.... Im not sure what there is to laugh at?? best to have all bases covered in my eyes, me growing food is simply owning my own life, and not wanting to eat the stuff passing for food in modern markets. Later as I realized how fragile certain things are I did indeed incorporate plans to be enacted when needed to account for bandits.... you actually think I meant I had bear traps out around my trees at present? I dont even own a bear trap.

Me saying you watch to many movies isnt referring to whether you prep or not. But the idea that physical dominance is the leading factor. Its far from it actually, although certainly helpful. Those 20 years olds with their AR15s you mentioned simply wont get to far. not if the intend to be robbing and pillaging for a living.... You think all those prepping dont realize those folks are coming? if indeed things to hit the fan.... Of course they do. So I reiterate... you watched to many movies if what you said seems truthful. The guy you mentioned defending his own tree wont be sitting there waiting to get shot in most cases. that is naive.

I actually come at this more as a homesteader. I happen to know many homesteaders, who do it for food independence and did so well before they ever thought it might be mandatory.

I could tell you some things you will face, but it doesnt appear youd understand. If things do fall apart though, youd be wise to not act anything like you seemed to imply you would. You will die young on that path.

[needler420]

When I say physical dominance being the key factor I'm stating its better then most preparation one can do.

Of course when you compare physical ability to intelligence, intelligence triumphs physical ability.

Else how else would we get lions and gorillas in the zoo.

If you're 220 pounds and 6'5 but retarded then of course you ain't getting far either.

Now if your that with say around the same IQ of the person you're trying to take advantage of well then you're probably in a better advanatge if you're bigger.

Even though morally wrong in a SHTF scene the bully is going to be the one who is on top when you can't go tell a teacher.

[Mossy]

When I say physical dominance being the key factor I'm stating its better then most preparation one can do.
...
Even though morally wrong in a SHTF scene the bully is going to be the one who is on top when you can't go tell a teacher.

Dominance need not be physical. Just ask anyone with an overbearing mother in law.

SHTF, and the bullies will end up being the "teacher".

[exbingoaddict]

So, let's get back on track. What do you think a good trade off ratio will be... for example: How many ounces of silver or gold would you trade for so many months of food? silver to a vehicle? gold to land? etc. etc.

Market Harmony, correct me if I'm wrong here. Are you viewing gold and silver as an alternate or even it's own currency compared to the USD, Euro, Yen, etc?

[Market Harmony]

So, let's get back on track. What do you think a good trade off ratio will be... for example: How many ounces of silver or gold would you trade for so many months of food? silver to a vehicle? gold to land? etc. etc.

Market Harmony, correct me if I'm wrong here. Are you viewing gold and silver as an alternate or even it's own currency compared to the USD, Euro, Yen, etc?

It will most likely never be a currency, but may back a currency in the future. In a tradeoff scenario, you would have to convert the gold to an asset that the seller wants. Whether you convert it to USD or Yen or Euro doesn't matter; only that the seller wants whatever you have. In the best case scenario, the seller will want gold or silver.

[Treetop]

Sorry to have helped derail the thread..

[needler420]

When I say physical dominance being the key factor I'm stating its better then most preparation one can do.
...
Even though morally wrong in a SHTF scene the bully is going to be the one who is on top when you can't go tell a teacher.

Dominance need not be physical. Just ask anyone with an overbearing mother in law.

SHTF, and the bullies will end up being the "teacher".

uhh I wouldn't call a ball and chain "physical" dominance. Maybe mental dominance. Unless you're physically attached to the ball and chain. The only thing I get from that is you have a mom that won't let you go out to the movies or a wife that won't let you play poker with the guys.

I also fail to see where you get any idea at all that bullies would turn into teachers in a SHTF scene. That's like saying criminals will turn into law makers. Did you just pull these sayings out a hat or something?

[Mossy]

Batting zero, there.

1) "Mental dominance" is very effective, and does not result in as many knife in the backs. Instead of MiL, maybe "nun in a parochial school"? Some of those nuns are half the size of the students they bully.

2) You meant "teachers" in a metaphorical sense as "authorities", correct? So did I. The authorities available will probably be bullies, or allied to them, or under their control.

[TXBullion]

Market Harmony is making some very good points. Silver and gold are not the end all be all in wealth holding. An eye should be kept on the equity, bond, and real estate markets.

Very good post. Do not get so entrenched in AU and ag to oversee the bigger picture as to why you originally got involved with them. A time will come of economic stability and reform and larger value will present itself just as know many see a large value in PM and BM

[Treetop]

Market Harmony is making some very good points. Silver and gold are not the end all be all in wealth holding. An eye should be kept on the equity, bond, and real estate markets.

Very good post. Do not get so entrenched in AU and ag to oversee the bigger picture as to why you originally got involved with them. A time will come of economic stability and reform and larger value will present itself just as know many see a large value in PM and BM

that goes the other way as well. Perhaps there will be no realistic reform or larger value. This doesnt mean opportunities cannot be had. Having capitol for investment could make all the difference in the world for wealth creation over preservation.

[TXBullion]

Market Harmony is making some very good points. Silver and gold are not the end all be all in wealth holding. An eye should be kept on the equity, bond, and real estate markets.

Very good post. Do not get so entrenched in AU and ag to oversee the bigger picture as to why you originally got involved with them. A time will come of economic stability and reform and larger value will present itself just as know many see a large value in PM and BM

that goes the other way as well. Perhaps there will be no realistic reform or larger value. This doesnt mean opportunities cannot be had. Having capitol for investment could make all the difference in the world for wealth creation over preservation.

Yes. I should that in my post I am coming from the standpoint of wealth creation

[Delawhere Jack]

Needler,

You repeatedly mention that people are better off with the federal reserve system. Well, for a good portion of it's history, it was a "workable" solution. Not the perfect system, but workable.

So long as the FED stuck to it's mandate of low inflation and high employment it was, perhaps, a necessary evil. It allowed capital to flow. It, combined with fractional reserve banking allowed industrious people to improve the lot for the nation as a whole. During that period, roughly from 1935 (Glass-Steagal law enacted, approx. date) until the late 1990's, things worked fairly well. Sure, there was constant inflation, sometimes pretty bad inflation, remember the late 70's? I do.

Then things changed. I'm not going into naming culprits, because that could fill an encyclopedia, but basically, the FED lost it's way. Somewhere along the way the idea of productive capital investments was overtaken by the concept of financialization. The so called FIRE econony (finance, insurance and real estate) replaced the production economy. Again, too many culprits/causes to mention here.

So here we are now in 2011. Personal savings are at or near all time lows, debt is at all time highs, wages are plummeting, and our productive industry has been almost completely offshored. Banks, that were allowed to indulge in wildly speculative investments are insolvent (though they are allowed to pretend they are not). The federal government is comprised of ass-clowns from "two parties" that can't seem to agree on anything, except to put us all deeper in debt.

So now, what is the FED to do? This is my question for you.

[Mossy]

...Then things changed. I'm not going into naming culprits, because that could fill an encyclopedia, but basically, the FED lost it's way. Somewhere along the way the idea of productive capital investments was overtaken by the concept of financialization. The so called FIRE econony (finance, insurance and real estate) replaced the production economy. Again, too many culprits/causes to mention here....

The people in charge always convince themselves that they are smart enough to find a way, this time.

Who does what, what the scam is, etc, always new, results always same old.

[needler420]

Needler,

You repeatedly mention that people are better off with the federal reserve system. Well, for a good portion of it's history, it was a "workable" solution. Not the perfect system, but workable.

So long as the FED stuck to it's mandate of low inflation and high employment it was, perhaps, a necessary evil. It allowed capital to flow. It, combined with fractional reserve banking allowed industrious people to improve the lot for the nation as a whole. During that period, roughly from 1935 (Glass-Steagal law enacted, approx. date) until the late 1990's, things worked fairly well. Sure, there was constant inflation, sometimes pretty bad inflation, remember the late 70's? I do.

Then things changed. I'm not going into naming culprits, because that could fill an encyclopedia, but basically, the FED lost it's way. Somewhere along the way the idea of productive capital investments was overtaken by the concept of financialization. The so called FIRE econony (finance, insurance and real estate) replaced the production economy. Again, too many culprits/causes to mention here.

So here we are now in 2011. Personal savings are at or near all time lows, debt is at all time highs, wages are plummeting, and our productive industry has been almost completely offshored. Banks, that were allowed to indulge in wildly speculative investments are insolvent (though they are allowed to pretend they are not). The federal government is comprised of ass-clowns from "two parties" that can't seem to agree on anything, except to put us all deeper in debt.

So now, what is the FED to do? This is my question for you.

I'm not saying the federal reserve is doing good or anything like that. I'm saying people are dependent on it. Gold and silver won't replace federal reserve notes their simply isn't enough of it to use it as a currency. Not when every country uses it as a intrinsic currency. The only way we could go back on the gold standard would be if all the other foreign countries stopped using it as a commodity .

Now don't get me wrong either I'm a precious metals investor my self and anyone who is able to should join. However that's not going to put us back on a gold and silver standard its probably about physically impossible to do now. That because the free market allowed those huge corps to gain without ever capping their success. Well coprs aren't stupid people either they to would rather physical stashes vs numbers in a computer.

If i thought going back to the gold standard was good for the average Joe then id side with it however I don't think its good for the average Joe. Maybe if were talking never gone off of it is another story but were talking about going back on it. And in that case I think Mr. average joe is going to be better with federal reserve notes.

The bigger problem I see is oil manipulation. When that gets played with EVERYTHING suffers from it.

When precious metals were at the lowest the economy was great and no debt. Precious metals since 2000 have gone up and the economy has done nothing but go down.

Basically inflation trailing right behind the market.

Which is my whole point with $500 dollar silver. Unless minimum wage goes up and oil stays the same would that be good. Do you think will get $500 silver with gas @ $3 a gallon gas and minimum wage going up to meet inflation. I don't. $500 silver is going to mean more negative things then positive.

[Delawhere Jack]

Ok, so my direct question to you remains. What does the Federal Reserve do given the current situation?

[needler420]

Ok, so my direct question to you remains. What does the Federal Reserve do given the current situation?

When you say current situation you're purposely targeting its current flaws. What about all the years after dropping the gold standard where our economy stayed stable and we were debt free all those years. You're quick to point out the flaws but every good thing about the federal reserve you throw out the window.

I'm not saying its the best thing to happen but I'm not going to say its worse then the gold standard.

There are too many people in our country who don't even know what the current market price is for precious metals.

That's the thing so many people are quick to dis the federal reserve and that's just because you're in the precious metals games. More then half the country couldn't tell you current market prices. There is no way to use another currency now. I mean I'm sure there are ways but if we ever come off of FRNS i see many negative things for it. It will be worse then when they took us off the gold standard. Its probably not even plausible as I don't think we will be able to change our currency any time soon. Not in our life time.

[Delawhere Jack]

Ok, so my direct question to you remains. What does the Federal Reserve do given the current situation?

When you say current situation you're purposely targeting its current flaws. What about all the years after dropping the gold standard where our economy stayed stable and we were debt free all those years. You're quick to point out the flaws but every good thing about the federal reserve you throw out the window.

We were not debt free before we dropped the gold standard, and we've done nothing but increase the debt (outside of a few years where the books were cooked) ever since.

I clearly stated that the FED system was a "workable" system, if not ideal, for many years.........Wait a minute.....


Timmah? Is that you?

[Treetop]

needler- It really isnt a matter of whether gold and silver should be money again. I agree currently that would be tricky. It actually is between sound money and fiat. It sure would hurt the average joe currently to go back to sound money. However... it will hurt much more if we do not. It is true that with fiat in good times you can expand growth. However at what cost? It causes many side issues and always falls in on itself in the end. There is no easy way out of our current mess, even if we did things to bring jobs back, or to create whole new fields, the dollar remains on a precipice. I guess fiat probably could be managed well to get most of the benefits yet block most of the dangers... but historically it has never happened. instead inflating the currency becomes a solution. Heck it can even work for a few generations.

with sound money policies, saving is rewarded. growth is generally slower, you often historically even have natural boom and bust cycles... but nothing like the bubbles of the last few decades that hit harder each time, and if we keep using bubbles to solve our issues they will eventually pop, and crash much of what we know.... Our society is very inter-dependant and compartmentalized. It wont turn out so good.

so you say going back to gold or silver wont be good for the average joe? what about sound money in general? Because as far as i can see, and history shows me clearly NOT going back to sound money will prove much worse to the average joe then doing it.

Fiat is like a very addictive drug though. Not very likely we will kick the addiction before it kicks us.... heck the only reason it didnt kick us already is because we happen to have our fiat in the role of reserve currency for the world. A role it only attained because at one point it was backed by gold. A role many globally now openly question with moves being made against the dollar as the soul holder of that role. the BRICS nations for instance. More then half the worlds population. Western dominance of the global economy wont last forever, and it is in large part fiats moneys fault why we didnt retain that top spot much longer then we will on our current path.

[needler420]

Ok, so my direct question to you remains. What does the Federal Reserve do given the current situation?

When you say current situation you're purposely targeting its current flaws. What about all the years after dropping the gold standard where our economy stayed stable and we were debt free all those years. You're quick to point out the flaws but every good thing about the federal reserve you throw out the window.

We were not debt free before we dropped the gold standard, and we've done nothing but increase the debt (outside of a few years where the books were cooked) ever since.

I clearly stated that the FED system was a "workable" system, if not ideal, for many years.........Wait a minute.....


Timmah? Is that you?

That's what they have to do then is rework the FED system. Going back on a gold standard or switching currencies won't help either. Like I said the only other way would have been to never come off the gold standard. Now that were off we ain't going back on its literally impossible. No way could everyone in America cash in fiat FRNs for precious metals. That is just not physically possible not enough precious metals exist. You would have to have the denomination of silver worth like 5k per gram. Even that wouldn't do it. Nor could you switch currencies. Our best interest where we stand today is by doing what ever it takes to make the FED work. Foreign affairs wouldn't let us on a gold standard even if we wanted to. Don't you think they want the real money stead of paper printed money backed by the government. Everyone would want to do the same thing.

Like I said our current way of life is dependent on the federal reserve. I don't see them hitting a button over night that is going to change that.

[TXBullion]

I think you guys should start a new topic as this is not related to OP

Anyone else? When would you trade out PM and is so at what poin?

[exbingoaddict]

I think you guys should start a new topic as this is not related to OP

Anyone else? When would you trade out PM and is so at what poin?

Agreed TXbullion. Somehow this was hijacked into a collapse of civilization and then into a Federal Reserve debate. Those discussions may be mertiful and worth having but it could be done in another theard.

Back to the point, as both MH and TXBull is attempting to do. I've very new to holding PMs and very little of my paper networth is wrapped up into it. So I'm seeking to add to my holdings at this time and really don't have enough to even consider an exit plan. So with that said, I'm quite curious has to what others are thinking.

[Thogey]

Back on topic.

At $75/oz for Ag I sell it all

I'm good. The cash goes into other hard asests

[neilgin1]

Like I said our current way of life is dependent on the federal reserve. I don't see them hitting a button over night that is going to change that.

i agree with you 100%...i harbor no delusions on that, but hear me a second, the FED is much like a father, who while he is a raging alcoholic pill junkie, manages to show up at his nice job everyday, do the work, and continue to be the functioning alcoholic pill popping wreck he is, and this father might be able to pull it off for YEARS, but one day, the piper will have to be paid, and that "father" is going to hit the wall and HARD, we're talking 100 mph an hour with a full tank of gas HARD....and it could be years, but then it could be a year, or months, i personally dont know, but i do know that "dad" is a miserable functioning pill popping drunk, with the chapters "rage and ruin" as his epilogue.....btw, 420, i didnt mean to rattle your chain bud with the prior post. i dont have a "Shtf mentality"...there's two types of preppers, there's the "lone wolf" type, buys toys, apocalypse is his only thought, and then there's the "communitas prepper", who just likesrural areas anyway, and really likes people, but can see that ole Vesvius smoking in the background. i fall into the latter, laughs are to taken VERY seriously........here's something i hope you'll like, some friends of mine in the Royal Marines Commandos made this, and i take this wisdom to heart; (let me know what you think)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk750Wzhvo4