What would you do?

[beauanderos]

I am getting out of copper sorting due to many different factors, increasing fees from banks, inability to order large numbers of boxes from any source, etc. But one big reason I am getting out is lost or stolen shipments. I have made good in the past in one instance, when despite five boxes being shipped on the same day a distance of only a little over 200 miles, one box with delivery confirmation managed to disappear between Fresno and Los Angeles. In another instance, the buyer received an empty box which had been razor slit. These boxes are shipped without insurance, as to add registered mail insured shipping would add probably another $35 to their cost. I would think it would be implicit between the buyer and seller that the cost to purchase would be considerably higher were the buyer (in order to absolve the seller of all "responsibility") insist on "insured" shipping. Therefore, I have informed my buyer (of probably fifty or more boxes over the last year) that both sides must assume accountability for boxes that don't reach their destination. One must assume that the shipping of copper cents is becoming a "risk trade." In this case, the tracking confirmation shows the boxes all received at the Los Angeles receiving facility, but tracking of the one box ends there with nothing new since Oct 24. How is it my responsibility to provide a replacement if the post office lost the shipment?

[Thogey]

It has to be the buyer's responsibility.

Except for gross negligence by the shipper, buyer must assume the cost of mail protection, or kicking the ass of the moron USPS employees responsible at the LA sort facility.

I can't imagine what a ZOO it is at that place.

[Thogey]

For this one instance though Ray: If you already sold 50 boxes to the guy, maybe it would be nice to just suck it up and clarify the shipping responsibility next time.

[68Camaro]

What you do in this specific case depends on your relationship to the buyer I think, as Thogey said. But hereon out, I think you've got to note the issue and declare your condition in your ads. As all should do. A single random loss out of many is one thing, but if you are starting to accumulate losses, you can't absorb that, and need to negotiate an arrangement with your buyers. Maybe you should sell "buyer" insurance, offer an optional premium based on your loss rate to self-insure - if they pay the premium and there is a loss then you cover it. If they don't take it, then the loss is the buyers.

[beauanderos]

I did send a long reply to the buyer, clarifying the "agreement" that would have to be in place if he wants the last ten boxes I'm down to. I already had made good once before to this same buyer. The only thing I risk in not reimbursing him is the loss of sales of the few remaining boxes I have. However, I ship my boxes packaged in such a way that damage cannot occur unless it's deliberate. I don't feel like I should have to "suck it up" and make restitution to him a second time (which would cost me the loss of $155 and shipping). This is clearly the post office's fault. On a much broader note, this can happen to anyone. If you are selling "cheap" lots of cents, make sure the buyer is willing to accept the responsibility of the box being sent uninsured, and not holding you culpable if something happens once you've sent it, as long as you have proof with delivery confirmation confirming that it was shipped from your post office.

[NDFarmer]

I have never had a box of copper not be delivered KNOCK ON WOOD. I always put delivery conformation on my boxes and that shows that I delivered a box to the USPS to prove that I sent it if they remember to scan it in. And it will show that is was delivered. But unless you pay extra for signature conformation you are still not off the hook because just because your package shows that is was delivered does not mean the USPS delivered it to the right address.

I know some sellers on feebay require that the purchaser buy insurance on the items that they are selling. I don't know about buying insurance on a box of copper I have had several people say that "technically" you really can't and if there is a loss you won't collect on it anyway. Something in the small print says you are not suppose to ship money through the mail. Because the copper we are shipping is current circulating money it is considered cash. Whereas if you ship a bunch of Morgan dollars they are insurable because they are not in circulation and are considered collector coins. I don't know about this I have never checked into it.

I guess to be real safe a person should require that the purchaser purchase insurance with signature conformation but if you do that how many sales will you make?

[NDFarmer]

Two boxes to the SAME buyer NOT delivered? I would be very suspicious I have sent many tons of copper and wheats through the USPS and have never had one box not delivered.

[Z00]

http://www.insurepost.com/default.asp

[beauanderos]

Two boxes to the SAME buyer NOT delivered? I would be very suspicious I have sent many tons of copper and wheats through the USPS and have never had one box not delivered.

I think the work ethic up where you live is probably much more responsible than it is in California.

The buyer isn't claiming I owe restitution. He was merely pointing out that four boxes arrived Oct 24 and one didn't. The tracking number confirms it reached Los Angeles receiving facility. I did get pissed off when I read the note, but hopefully my response to him below doesn't insinuate that I was seething with anger (at the post office) when I wrote the note to him:

Xxxx, when I entered that number it shows the box having arrived at the receiving facility in Los Angeles, but no further information following that. You'll need to determine (maybe from your post office) where the main receiving facility is. Hopefully it can be located there, given a description. The way I protect the shipping information on the box, they can't claim it is undeliverable. You might have to take an empty box with you to assist their search. This is one BIG reason I am getting out of copper sorting. There is no point in my continuing if they can't ensure safe delivery. I have already made good on one previous "lost" delivery to you, and another in which case the recipient received nothing but a razor-cut empty box, but I am not going to continue to do so for postal incompetency or outright theft. They can't be shipped registered insured as there isn't enough profit to do so. Apparently, this will have to be considered a "risk" trade, one assumed by both parties. Thieves, if that is the case, are becoming brazen. But I think it more likely that someone dropped the box and split it, and was too lazy to correct the mistake. Perhaps I am wrong, and the shipment can be located for you upon providing identification. I have already learned the extent of the help that the post office will extend from my end is confirming what the USPS tracking confirms, that the box did arrive at the LA receiving facility.

I regret if my attitude influences you to find another seller but I will certainly find it understandable if you no longer care to conduct transactions with me,
Ray

If, as I have outlined above you are willing to assume that risk is present and not hold me accountable should errors like these occur in the future, I do have the last ten boxes or so I am in the process of cleaning and counting as we speak. I will sell them at the same rate as before, and be done with this. As you might guess, I'm pretty pissed off about this. It's not directed at you. I guess, if you were to rationalize, given the number of boxes you have purchased from me, that the purchase price adjusted to include the loss might have been more in line with what they could have been bought for on ebay. And even then, you are still exposed to the same risks of loss or theft. You simply cannot purchase cents risk-free, and must assume some accountability for taking the chance that they will reach you intact. I would think that would be an implicit understanding, or else the price would have to be something like $189 each, if not more.

[beauanderos]

http://www.insurepost.com/default.asp

What good does this do? It states coins are uninsurable:

What items can I insure?
The following list of items are NOT ABLE TO BE INSURED by InsurePost.com.

Accounts, bills, currency, cash in transit, evidence of debt, checks, money orders, COD payments, coins (collectible coins are not excluded), securities and other negotiable papers, tickets, deeds, notes, gift cards, manuscripts, documents, neon items, hazardous material (per UPS Hazardous Materials List), LCD monitors or screens, televisions (including LCD, plasma, CRT, projection, and similar), cell phones (including mobile phones, smart phones, messaging phones, iPhones, android phones, blackberry phones, and similar), laptop computers (including tablet computers, iPads, and similar), perishable cargo or similar property, eggs, any stone or ceramic slabs, automobiles, motorcycles, live animals, flowers, plants, seeds, cigarettes/cigars, cotton, guns (guns more than 100 years old are not excluded), tobacco, windows, plate glass, stained glass, float glass, and used household goods and used personal effects.

[Z00]

Copper discs?

[NDFarmer]

O.K. so the delivery conformation only showed 4 of 5 boxes delivered. Yes then it is on the USPS to come with the 5th box. I thought it showed all 5 delivered and the buyer was saying he was one short. I had a case once where the box showed it was delivered and buyer said it was not. Well turns out the box got delivered to the wrong address and it showed up at his address a couple days later.

[aaa30040]

I was one of his customers that hadthe pennies stolen from the mail. He refunded my purchase price even though I did not ask for it. I would do business with him again even if losses were not reimbursed. I know it was not his fault. I reported to postal inspectors and of course never heard anything from them about it.

[iluc]

I wonder how much longer these unsustainably low shipping rates from the USPS can even last. Copper seems like more of a local money due to its low density of value . . . perhaps one day there will be sufficient local interest so that mail can be avoided and anonymity assured. That doesn't help in the here and now, of course, but it wouldn't hurt to start local clubs (or join existing coin clubs and add the copper bullion twist) and gin up interest that way.

[NDFarmer]

I wonder how much longer these unsustainably low shipping rates from the USPS can even last.

I have always wondered that too. There are times I ship five or six 70 lb. boxes at one time. That is 420 lbs. shipped across the country for $63.00. When they decide to do away with the flat rate box that will pretty much put an end to our hobby. The only sales you will be able to make will be local ones.

[pennymanofmoney]

I'm already out of sorting through pennies myself. Banks have become increasingly hostile to me and want to charge me fees for penny boxes. Also, the fact that the coin counter would always break by the time I got there.

[CoinHuntingObsession]

You can insure coins if they are collectible, according to my local PO...

[natsb88]

Cash (including pennies) can only be insured using Registered Mail. Bullion can only be insured using Registered Mail. Numismatic coins can be insured using regular insurance, but you'll probably have to battle with the USPS over the value and it will be a pain to collect anything.

-----

Generally in the business world, IF there is no discussion or agreement regarding insurance and/or who assumes the risk of shipping before finalizing the sale, the seller is responsible for delivering the goods. IF the seller sets forth terms that the buyer assumes the risk (and usually offers an insurance option for an additional fee) before finalizing the sale, then the seller is off the hook.

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To file an official inquiry for a missing package, go here:

https://www.usps.com/customer-service/c ... ervice.htm

Click "Send us an email" at the bottom. For inquiry type, select "Problem." Click the "Receiving Mail" tab. Select "No Delivery/No Attempt" from the drop-down box. Select "I Did Not Receive a Specific Item" from the second drop-down box. Click "Continue" and then fill in the form with the appropriate selections and make sure you include the Delivery Confirmation number. This will generate a report that will be sent to the Postmaster at the PO that should have delivered the package to the recipient. That Postmaster should then try to trace the package along it's journey and contact the last place it was scanned to attempt to locate it.

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I don't think the Flat Rate Boxes will be going away any time soon. The USPS makes money on parcels as a whole, and loses money on First Class, which is why they have been pushing Priority so much the last couple years. The majority of Flat Rate Boxes don't weight anything close to 70 pounds. We are one of the few demographics that uses them this way, and we are still a relatively small group compared to overall mail volume. I think you will see counter rates rise faster than online rates, since printing labels online saves a ton of time at the window and lets them get away with fewer workers/hours.

[barrytrot]

Two boxes to the SAME buyer NOT delivered? I would be very suspicious I have sent many tons of copper and wheats through the USPS and have never had one box not delivered.

It's possible. I ordered from FastTT and that happened a couple years ago. 4 out of 5 appeared. The one that didn't showed back up to him a month later or so.

Regarding the OP's original question: Going forward have a more formal contract between you and your buyer that says, at least:

- If USPS says "delivered" then --------

- If USPS never says "delivered" then --------

- Other obvious contingencies.


Naturally if you are running a website, put a statement of terms with those items on there.


If you did NOT do this, then you should, at the very least, work out a reasonable compromise with the buyer. If the buyer is a bit of a jerk about it, then sell the other 10 boxes elsewhere. And regardless sell the other 10 boxes with a REAL AGREEMENT in place.


Seems like normal business rules of transactions should be used. In the case of $5,000 face in cents that's a large transaction for 99% of businesses, so it needs to be handled as such

Edit for clarity: By "normal business rules of transactions" I mean every other business uses a contract of some kind to protect both parties and to answer questions in case of acts of God or other events that throw a monkey wrench in. These, of course, vary wildly, but HAVING A CONTRACT is a key factor when you are dealing with almost 5 figures of cash Even 4 figures, I would think

[TheJonasCollegeFund]

Well I filed an official complaint for my recent lost package and we'll see how far that goes. All I will say is that I'm pissed because the postmaster here made me the one at fault for not having insurance on the package. I know this is not one of your big packages, Ray, but L.A. isn't the only place stuff gets "LOST"!

And, my postmaster couldn't even tell me the policy or procedure when a package comes up missing. No customer service at all.

This should be a wake up call for everyone here on the forum. The post office does not care about YOU or YOUR package. Just say a prayer each time something safely makes it to your door and you're home to GRAB it! If it goes back to the post office...you may never ever get to see it!

[avidbrandy]

I've purchased a CTU from beauanderos before. had no issues and still have it in the packaging. You can tell what it is by the grunts you make when you pick it up.

I'd have to say maybe just use UPS or Fedex instead when shipping to that area.

[adagirl]

It has been awhile since I have shipped UPS, but for your larger shipments, esp copper it would seem to me that UPS would have comparable rates except when something crosses the Rocky Mountains. Unless their rates have changed, UPS automatically insures boxes for up $100 at no fee. UPS is responsible, they can track your package, and they are not the worthless feds. I have had several packages lost or damaged in transit with UPS, and they paid up for their errors.

It might pay to look into UPS. I used to ship 100's of packages a week with UPS. UPS is not perfect, but they are not the government. If your package is lost, you will get an answer and paid for whatever you insured the package for.

[natsb88]

It has been awhile since I have shipped UPS, but for your larger shipments, esp copper it would seem to me that UPS would have comparable rates except when something crosses the Rocky Mountains. Unless their rates have changed, UPS automatically insures boxes for up $100 at no fee. UPS is responsible, they can track your package, and they are not the worthless feds. I have had several packages lost or damaged in transit with UPS, and they paid up for their errors.

It might pay to look into UPS. I used to ship 100's of packages a week with UPS. UPS is not perfect, but they are not the government. If your package is lost, you will get an answer and paid for whatever you insured the package for.

Nope. 10,000 copper cents ship in a Flat Rate Box for $10.50, anywhere in the country, with 2-3 day delivery. Except for extremely local shipments, UPS can't touch it. And according to the third party company I use for insuring international bullion shipments, the USPS loses a smaller percentage of packages than UPS or FedEx, but the lack of true tracking with the USPS means this company won't cover anything except Express.

[adagirl]

Just looked up the UPS rates
zone 2 70# $16.39 (local, and depending on where you are may cover your state)
zone 8 70# $48.95 (approx 2000 - 3000 miles within the 48 states)
HI and AK is much more expensive

when you add the USPS insurance fees and poor tracking, it may be worthwhile to consider UPS for your zones 2 -4 shipments. Maybe offer your customer the option of USPS vs. UPS and adjust shipping fees accordingly. You might consider a disclaimer that shipments via USPS are shipped at the buyers risk.

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

I go back far enough in penny shipping to remember when UPS was basically the only game in town. Back then there was no such thing as flat rate shipping.