invest in 401k more or silver/gold

[68Camaro]

No, they likely won't seize them, literally. They will either tax them to death, or they will force the investment to be in T-bills, or both. Thus making them increasingly worthless.

I don't measure my PMs by USD, but by ounces.

(But BTW, even though I've bought the bulk of them over the past year, I'm still up when measured in USD, even with all the PM price supression during that period.)

Free money.... that's what the USD is, for sure. Worthless. OK - that's hyperbole - not yet fully worthless, but becoming more so, every day. The prices of items astound me, even when compared to just a year ago - when, BTW, I was having a debate with an intermittent poster here about whether or not inflation was real. He maintained then that it wasn't. At the time I told him something like that it was apparent we were living on different planets, because significant inflation was fact and not a debatable item.

The government isn't going to seize anyone's tax deferred retirement accounts in the future. The taxes on the investments held in retirement accounts are taken out upon retirement. When people get to retirement age, most will not only be in a higher tax bracket, but at that time taxes will be higher. So the government will get their share of money.

If your employer is offering a company match, you should take advantage of that. Otherwise you are throwing away free money.

Investment is all about timing. You only make money when you sell for a profit whether its stocks, real estate, PMs, collectables etc.

If you have bought PMs 2+ years ago you would be up a bit of money. If you bought during the past year, unless it was on a correction, you could be down a bit or near break even.

Don't forget to invest in yourself. Learn skills that will increase your income in the future.

[Cu Penny Hoarder]

Those of you are contributing to a 401k, IRA (or any other paper investment) are enabling the phony fiat financial system and even more criminal bankster behavior. Shame on you!

Stop feeding the hole.

[barrytrot]

Those of you are contributing to a 401k, IRA (or any other paper investment) are enabling the phony fiat financial system and even more criminal bankster behavior. Shame on you!

Stop feeding the hole.

That is your opinion.

That is absolutely not fact.

The 401k money and other stock invested money goes to buy shares in companies. Some of which are actually worthwhile.

I plan to keep putting more into the stock market and I have never and will never support criminal behavior.

[SoFa]

Don't choose between the 401k and precious metals.
Do both. Contribute to the 401k and stack PMs until it hurts.
If you can't afford both, find a way (give up something else or get some extra income on the side).
40 years from now, you'll be very glad you did.
In fact, you'll be happy a lot sooner because you'll have such a stash that you can get into other investments.

[Cu Penny Hoarder]

Those of you are contributing to a 401k, IRA (or any other paper investment) are enabling the phony fiat financial system and even more criminal bankster behavior. Shame on you!

Stop feeding the hole.

That is your opinion.

That is absolutely not fact.

The 401k money and other stock invested money goes to buy shares in companies. Some of which are actually worthwhile.

I plan to keep putting more into the stock market and I have never and will never support criminal behavior.

It is absolute fact.

The entire stock market is a rigged, manipulated game. It's main purpose is to steal money from average joe-schmoe's who have been sold the myths of "investing". 401k's, IRA's, mutual funds, annuities, are all scams. All the stock market does is transfer wealth from average folk to the elites of the world.

Please educate yourself.

[Engineer]

Those of you are contributing to a 401k, IRA (or any other paper investment) are enabling the phony fiat financial system and even more criminal bankster behavior. Shame on you!

Stop feeding the hole.

I agree. Even though I keep some money in the bank, I purposely keep it in a savings account rather than a money market account. Doing so costs me a quarter point in lost interest, but it forces them to lend it out locally rather than loaning it to other banks.

[barrytrot]

Those of you are contributing to a 401k, IRA (or any other paper investment) are enabling the phony fiat financial system and even more criminal bankster behavior. Shame on you!

Stop feeding the hole.

That is your opinion.

That is absolutely not fact.

The 401k money and other stock invested money goes to buy shares in companies. Some of which are actually worthwhile.

I plan to keep putting more into the stock market and I have never and will never support criminal behavior.

It is absolute fact.

The entire stock market is a rigged, manipulated game. It's main purpose is to steal money from average joe-schmoe's who have been sold the myths of "investing". 401k's, IRA's, mutual funds, annuities, are all scams. All the stock market does is transfer wealth from average folk to the elites of the world.

Please educate yourself.

Ok, I will give you a chance to educate me. Give me these "absolute facts" to which you are referring.

I am pretty knowledgeable and I contend it is not fact. Very few people would tell me with a straight face, "please educate yourself".

But I am willing to hear information that I am not aware of.

So give me these facts. If you can produce these facts you will have gained many converts to your way of thinking.

[Engineer]

Here's a fact: The CME is lowering margins on Cu and Ag effective 4-16.

Another fact: There was a big jump in Ag earlier today...several hours before the CME announcement.

Taken at face value, these two facts form a coincidence. When enough of these coincidences are aggregated and statistically analyzed, however, it becomes readily apparent that insider information is being leaked and used to gain an unfair trading advantage.

[SoFa]

If they're rigged and you can't make money in them, then don't invest in Cu or Ag.
But what kind of return have people made who've been socking money away in the stock market for the past 20 or 40 years?

[barrytrot]

Here's a fact: The CME is lowering margins on Cu and Ag effective 4-16.

Another fact: There was a big jump in Ag earlier today...several hours before the CME announcement.

Taken at face value, these two facts form a coincidence. When enough of these coincidences are aggregated and statistically analyzed, however, it becomes readily apparent that insider information is being leaked and used to gain an unfair trading advantage.

That proves that there are people in-the-know. That doesn't prove that the entire thing is evil. Or at least not more evil than ALL SYSTEMS.

I am not arguing that there are people in-the-know and unfairly so. I know that. You know that. That's common knowledge.

What I'm saying is that the whole thing is not evil. Not more evil than all other systems, that is.

Do you think there is a system where the insiders don't have a significant advantage? Do you really think that when Ceaser decided to buy grain from a province that the deal was made fairly in ancient Rome or do you think that the deal was a sweetheart deal? Of course it was.

Does that mean all grain trade in ancient Rome was evil? No.

Every single system has those with their hands in the cookie jar. That's going to happen until you find a system with only those that have no sin in their hearts. That doesn't exist on this planet.


Does that make the system evil? No. Or at least no more so than all the other systems.


The stock market has significant insiders. As does the commodity exchange. That's a given that everyone that wants to make money better keep in mind.

Does that make it evil? No more than every single system since the dawn of man.

Does that make it impossible to make money? Definitely not. In fact, I believe that makes it a lot easier.


What I am asking proof for is that, "the whole system is evil." It's not. Sure there are insiders that control a LOT and obviously do what will make them and theirs the most cash. Can I get a big, "of course" on that one?


Every system has insiders that exert a lot of force. That's not evil, that's human nature. Which I would argue is also evil, but again, "no more evil than every other system out there".

[barrytrot]

If they're rigged and you can't make money in them, then don't invest in Cu or Ag.
But what kind of return have people made who've been socking money away in the stock market for the past 20 or 40 years?

You can make money in them.

We have a member that makes a lot of trades and occasionally shares them here (jhonfly or something). He knows that there are significant players that can make waves but he has a system which works WITH THAT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

Take into a account that there are insiders and that they will work for their own good (of course!)

Make your investments with that in mind and you can make a nice income on the market.

[John_doe]

its always good to have a healthy balance. too much of one thing or the other could leave you over exposed.

[mongo]

Think they dont want to manage your 401k?

//romanticpoet.wordpress.com/tag/obama-government-takeover-of-401-ks/




Sort On

Mongo

Because Honey Badger still dont care

[Lemon Thrower]

it boggles my mind how most people don't beleive the govt's promises about their social security 'contributions' but do believe the govt's promises about roth ira taxation.

there are several reasons not to contribute.

- limited investment choices - basically the heads we win, tails you lose mainstream crap sold by wall street
- limited liquidity - generally can't take the money out absent hardship until you leave the company
- 10% penalty for withdrawal
- sitting target for uncle sam - like putting a bullshead on your forehead
- ultimately, 401k is a tax deferral. you don't avoid tax, just delay it. but if you expect taxes to go up in the future, which is inevitable in my view, then you want to accelerate the recognition of tax not delay it.

if you do contribute, do the least you can to get the match. the match is the only reason to do this, and even then its a dubious proposition.

[barrytrot]

Lemon,

Hm, actually you are right. Those are very legitimate negatives.

My company's plan avoids those as it is a self directed employer contributed plan, but a standard 401k has those pretty severe negatives.

Hm, I'm still on the side of put money in as much as you can, but I can see some good reasons not to!

[Lemon Thrower]

self directed meaning you can invest in anything? that is quite rare. still, you have that outside of the 401k anyway.

at most, i would invest to get the max company match assuming there is no vesting requirement.

the other problem with 401ks is because they are pre-tax, you convince yourself you have more in there than you really do. yeah, if you take it out you lose some to tax, but that is always the case even at the finish line ( i don't mean death, which is an exception). better to bite the bullet and pay the piper now imho. from a tax standpoint, you can reinvest in tax efficient assets like land or paying down debt which minimizes the perceived loss of a tax advantage.

[SoFa]

You can take the money you save now in taxes and invest it. That will more than cover your taxes in retirement.

[barrytrot]

self directed meaning you can invest in anything? that is quite rare. still, you have that outside of the 401k anyway.

at most, i would invest to get the max company match assuming there is no vesting requirement.

the other problem with 401ks is because they are pre-tax, you convince yourself you have more in there than you really do. yeah, if you take it out you lose some to tax, but that is always the case even at the finish line ( i don't mean death, which is an exception). better to bite the bullet and pay the piper now imho. from a tax standpoint, you can reinvest in tax efficient assets like land or paying down debt which minimizes the perceived loss of a tax advantage.

Yes I have a normal account with options privileges including buying options directly. No margin of course.

I always look at the money as 60% of what the balance shows on my Net Worth worksheets.

[SilverDragon72]

SilverDragon72: "What does "TPTB" mean?" The Powers That Be. Often used acronym for the ultimate and possibly hidden-from-our-direct-view powers behind the machine(s) that control the market(s) (and everything else).

madman326: "what was the justification given by TPTB in rounding up everyones gold back in the day????" To corner the market in gold so that the government could then devalue the dollar by changing the dollar/gold ratio (the price, and therefore allow the creation of more dollars), while also preventing anyone else from profiting on that move.

Ah yes....The Powers That Be!

[SilverDragon72]

No, they likely won't seize them, literally. They will either tax them to death, or they will force the investment to be in T-bills, or both. Thus making them increasingly worthless.

I don't measure my PMs by USD, but by ounces.

(But BTW, even though I've bought the bulk of them over the past year, I'm still up when measured in USD, even with all the PM price supression during that period.)

Free money.... that's what the USD is, for sure. Worthless. OK - that's hyperbole - not yet fully worthless, but becoming more so, every day. The prices of items astound me, even when compared to just a year ago - when, BTW, I was having a debate with an intermittent poster here about whether or not inflation was real. He maintained then that it wasn't. At the time I told him something like that it was apparent we were living on different planets, because significant inflation was fact and not a debatable item.

The government isn't going to seize anyone's tax deferred retirement accounts in the future. The taxes on the investments held in retirement accounts are taken out upon retirement. When people get to retirement age, most will not only be in a higher tax bracket, but at that time taxes will be higher. So the government will get their share of money.

If your employer is offering a company match, you should take advantage of that. Otherwise you are throwing away free money.
I cannot simply imagine the government just seizing all assets held in these types of investments. I know the government is capable of such kinds of shananigans, but to do something THAT drastic would cause so much discontent and civil unrest, that it probably wouldn't be worth it, IMO. Besides, they have more than enough "tools" and creative ways to steal your money....its called TAXES. The whole taxation system could use an overhaul!
Investment is all about timing. You only make money when you sell for a profit whether its stocks, real estate, PMs, collectables etc.

If you have bought PMs 2+ years ago you would be up a bit of money. If you bought during the past year, unless it was on a correction, you could be down a bit or near break even.

Don't forget to invest in yourself. Learn skills that will increase your income in the future.

[Lemon Thrower]

You can take the money you save now in taxes and invest it. That will more than cover your taxes in retirement.

only if you assume rates don't go up, that you don't have any losses, and that the government doesn't change the rules. if you assume a modest tax increase, like 5%, its a wash.

[OneBiteAtATime]

switching into a new job and looking to start up my 401k (young 20's). Im wondering what peoples thoughts are on what percentage i should allocate to my 401k and what percentage i should try to put into physical metals. Right now i have it set up with 7% to 401k with a 3% company match. But im wondering if i might see a better return putting the cash into metals and reducing the 401K amount per check.

Lol. Ignoring the above, although I agree with both sides in some way.....

Congrats on the new gig, Kidman! What is it?

[JobIII]

I would plan to save 15% of your annual income into some kind of retirement fund. Maximize your companies matching program. Then consider other options Roth accounts tax upfront, since you're still in your twenties this may be to your benefit when you start pulling the money out.

If you are trying to buy physical PM's, you should keep in mind the money you use has already been taxed. And the sale of those PM's later on will also be subject to a tax (unless you don't declare it).

Some 401k's and IRA's allow you to invest in silver/gold Funds or ETFs. These mirror the market price of the physical PM's, but they are subject to the rules of the 401k or IRA.

**************************
I would recommend you, maximize the employer match, and then look into Roth IRA's and maximize them each year then buy PM's with whatever is left over. They tax you in your current bracket versus an assumed higher one when you're in your 50's... Your employer may even offer a Roth 401k.
1. Roth IRA (maximum contribution)
2. Employer 401k + full match
3. PM's gold, silver, etc.

**************************
Note: PM's are subject to higher volatility than mutual funds. If you are looking for higher returns and are willing to accept the potential risks, PM's may be just what you're looking for. Just remember you are 35+ years away from using the 401k funds.

~JobIII

[Lemon Thrower]

15-20% is a fair amount to save, but i wouldn't put anything into a Roth unless you know of some reason to trust the govt of which I am not aware.

[JobIII]

Invest at your own risk I guess. I know a lot of people that aren't using them, and a lot that do.