Visit to local coin shop prices and premium

[OneBiteAtATime]

Volume.

So why is the LCS engaging in extortion when he buys and sells at what the market can bear locally? or in my above examples like the big boy online rretailer.

I yield back the remainder of my time. I gotta sleep.

[Jonflyfish]

Volume.

So why is the LCS engaging in extortion when he buys and sells at what the market can bear locally? or in my above examples like the big boy online rretailer.

I yield back the remainder of my time. I gotta sleep.

Perhaps you are right. Just good folk looking to be a market maker in the best interest of everyone, with exception of those who know better and can wait until the other folks clear out of the store then discuss better terms.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

Talk about greed- Many examples offered here about the dishonest extortion by small time dealers who are likely sitting on inventory MtM losses so they gouge unknowing folks and will be straight with the buyer who knows better when no one else is around. I hope unhedged upside down inventory price shocks drive all dishonest dealers out of business...

Cheers!

If all these LCS's are extortionists, what does that make other small businesses?

From what I see, all of them raise prices immediately when spot rises, and gradually lower prices after those changes filter through the wholesalers. I know that I'll need to wait a few days after a drop in spot to see a difference at the gas pump, but IMHO that's a lesser evil than waiting in gas lines every time the market takes a dip...or being stuck midway through a road trip with no gas to get home because some banker shorted crude futures.

For that matter, I also don't expect my local butcher to update bacon prices by the minute as pork bellies rise and fall...and I'm grateful for his constant supply.

[Jonflyfish]

Talk about greed- Many examples offered here about the dishonest extortion by small time dealers who are likely sitting on inventory MtM losses so they gouge unknowing folks and will be straight with the buyer who knows better when no one else is around. I hope unhedged upside down inventory price shocks drive all dishonest dealers out of business...

Cheers!

If all these LCS's are extortionists, what does that make other small businesses?

From what I see, all of them raise prices immediately when spot rises, and gradually lower prices after those changes filter through the wholesalers. I know that I'll need to wait a few days after a drop in spot to see a difference at the gas pump, but IMHO that's a lesser evil than waiting in gas lines every time the market takes a dip...or being stuck midway through a road trip with no gas to get home because some banker shorted crude futures.

For that matter, I also don't expect my local butcher to update bacon prices by the minute as pork bellies rise and fall...and I'm grateful for his constant supply.

Some folks are happy paying major retail premiums to support the middle man and others look to see how efficient their purchases can be.
However, it does seem a bit cheeky to charge an unsuspecting (trustung) customer one rate then offer a substantial discount to the next who may know where the market is. Capitalism at its finest?...
Buyer beware (or risk getting raked). Perhaps that's why LCS non-numi coins rounds bars etc rarely have a price sticker or anything posted to determine transparent pricing. Just ask what the price is and don't be surprised if the LCS sniffs out to see what he/she/it can get away with, different than the last (or next) person that comes through the door.

Very curious how a banker, dentist, or florist shorting crude causes physical supply shortage for refined products at the pump during your road trip because they sold a futures contract.
Cheers!

[angel2004]

While my local dealers premiums have increased, not like the online sites have though. He's at least fair and honest. Guess I'm lucky.

[pmbug]

... Just ask what the price is and don't be surprised if the LCS sniffs out to see what he/she/it can get away with, ...

My LCS quotes prices in terms of premium over spot. You can even call them on the phone and lock in a price if you are watching the spot action at home and go finalize the transaction later in the shop.

It's been my experience that our LCS is more interested in making a customer than making a one-off sale.

[angel2004]

Exactly how mine does. It had been 3% over spot for all 90% until maybe a month or so ago. Then it was 5% for dimes and quarters and 10%for halves. Then 15% for dimes and quarters (about 2 weeks ago) and no halves avail. This week still 15% for dimes/quarters and 20% for halves. All avail in limited amounts on Mon. They said not much coming in, selling basically only so I'm sure supply will dwindle. Through all the fluctuations over the past few years, while some had said no 90% avail or high premiums, this shop was well stocked and didn't price raise just because. I did speak to another shop and they couldn't tell a formula! no business for them. I want to know. Mine uses .715 and the percentage over spot to sell to you and you can basically know the deal before getting there. Only variance is spot.

[cooyon]

My LCS this afternoon was spot +$3 for one ounce bars...Silvertowne, Sunshine Minting, and OPM. I only got 5 oz, but I could have had whatever qty I could pay cash for at that price, he had a lot in stock. Yesterday I was at a small shop, asking price for ASEs was $35 and ordinary Morgans were $37! Didn't jump on that opportunity.

[SilverDragon72]

I don't understand this argument. I never will understand why folks are offended at prices they feel are unreasonable.

The bullion dealers and coin shops are not withholding medicine, gasoline or god forbid someones social security gubmint cheese.

If you don't like the price, make an offer. As far as bullion goes no one is morally obligated to sell. It's all perceived value anyway.

The ammo situation is a perfect example. If you really need it, it is available for a price. But you better be at Wal-Mart at the right time if you want cheap prices.

RC members are all irritable, just like the last big dip.

I'm not irritable!!!!

I am tranquil as a cool morning breeze in the summer!

[natsb88]

So one more question. If

I assure you that the wholesale physical market is the spot price.

but the LCS doesn't buy in the wholesale physical market - It buys in the local market - how does that make them extortionists?

Case in point - when I visited the LCS today, they had no 999 silver on the racks, no one selling. IF someone brought in 50 ASE that they demanded spot + $2 for, and the LCS KNEW due to local shortage that they could sell them for spot +$4, would the LCS be engaged in extortion? Or the seller? Or both?

What prevents them from buying (or selling for that matter) wholesale? I've had quite a few conversations with dealers who participate in the wholesale markets.
Cheers!

Not everybody has the resources to buy and sell silver "by the pallet" as you do. That's like walking into a mom and pop restaurant and complaining that they charge too much for pie because they are buying flour at the grocery store instead of buying 5000 bushel wheat contracts.

To continue that analogy, wheat isn't flour, and 1000 oz COMEX bars are not 1 oz rounds in a dealer's display case. There are a lot of steps in between that require equipment, energy, and labor, and to expect somebody to do it all for free is ridiculous.



All that equipment looks super cheap, eh? And I'm sure all those employees who are trusted around millions of dollars of materials all day are working for minimum wage.

Going back to the wheat thing, the grocery store manager doesn't run out to mark down the price of 5 pound bags of flour the instant the price of wheat futures falls. (In fact I don't think the price of flour ever really goes down). So why expect bullion dealers to do that? Wheat is the main component of flour, but there are other factors like additives, packaging, labor, and of course demand. Silver is the only component of retail bullion, but there is a whole heap of equipment, consumables, energy, and labor involved to get it there, and changes in those factors affect the final price too.

If you are so convinced that dealers are gouging customers and getting rich, why not cash out a pallet of that silver you have and start your own coin shop? People are buying at $2 - $5 over...just throw those 1000 oz bars in the case and wait for the dough to come rolling in.

Wait...nobody will buy those in a retail environment? I guess that means you have to source retail-sized bullion instead. Wonder where you can go to get that. Certainly not COMEX. Doesn't seem like any of the people that bought at $30+ a few weeks ago are walking back in the shop to sell at $23. I guess that leaves you with the mints, and I bet they want a slightly higher premium than normal since demand for their product has gone through the roof and they can only make them so fast. Those b@stards and their capitalism.

Didn't mean to come off as snarky. Well...maybe a little . But I really want to know the secret to this miracle wholesale market for retail-sized bullion with infinite supply that always sells for a constant spot + $0.xx you keep implying exists

[Jonflyfish]

Not everybody has the resources to buy and sell silver "by the pallet" as you do. That's like walking into a mom and pop restaurant and complaining that they charge too much for pie because they are buying flour at the grocery store instead of buying 5000 bushel wheat contracts.

To continue that analogy, wheat isn't flour, and 1000 oz COMEX bars are not 1 oz rounds in a dealer's display case. There are a lot of steps in between that require equipment, energy, and labor, and to expect somebody to do it all for free is ridiculous.



All that equipment looks super cheap, eh? And I'm sure all those employees who are trusted around millions of dollars of materials all day are working for minimum wage.

Going back to the wheat thing, the grocery store manager doesn't run out to mark down the price of 5 pound bags of flour the instant the price of wheat futures falls. (In fact I don't think the price of flour ever really goes down). So why expect bullion dealers to do that? Wheat is the main component of flour, but there are other factors like additives, packaging, labor, and of course demand. Silver is the only component of retail bullion, but there is a whole heap of equipment, consumables, energy, and labor involved to get it there, and changes in those factors affect the final price too.

If you are so convinced that dealers are gouging customers and getting rich, why not cash out a pallet of that silver you have and start your own coin shop? People are buying at $2 - $5 over...just throw those 1000 oz bars in the case and wait for the dough to come rolling in.

Wait...nobody will buy those in a retail environment? I guess that means you have to source retail-sized bullion instead. Wonder where you can go to get that. Certainly not COMEX. Doesn't seem like any of the people that bought at $30+ a few weeks ago are walking back in the shop to sell at $23. I guess that leaves you with the mints, and I bet they want a slightly higher premium than normal since demand for their product has gone through the roof and they can only make them so fast. Those b@stards and their capitalism.

Didn't mean to come off as snarky. Well...maybe a little . But I really want to know the secret to this miracle wholesale market for retail-sized bullion with infinite supply that always sells for a constant spot + $0.xx you keep implying exists

Like I said earlier friend, perhaps retail customers like getting gouged. Their premiums over spot have fluctuated wildly from one source to the next while institutional pricing has not. 1000 oz bars are not 1000 1 oz chips. I get that. But it is 1000 oz of .999 silver. Just like wheat isn't flour, 90% junk chips aren't .999 silver. As for the immediate mark down of flour after wheat price declines, I believe we already duscussed that. It's one of the many ways retail gouges customers in the flour bag, the gas tank and the mortgage rate.
When you say "There are a lot of steps in between that require equipment, energy, and labor, and to expect somebody to do it all for free is ridiculous." You must have the wrong idea about my argument. I understand that you have a vested interest in repeating your message about how you bought machines etc. etc. I get that but that cost is relatively stable and never said it should be "free".

However, I'll never buy the cheeky excuse that explaining those relatively stable planchet punching costs will drive premiums to fluctuate wildly and inconsistently from one location to the next. That's what I'm talking about. Also, what wholesale market for retail bullion are you taling about?
Sadly people here have used retail spread increases (gouging) as a way to somehow believe that they are about to take down JPM. Ouch!
Cheers!

[natsb88]

However, I'll never buy the cheeky excuse that explaining those relatively stable planchet punching costs will drive premiums to fluctuate wildly and inconsistently from one location to the next. That's what I'm talking about.

Customers, triggered by a drop in spot price, start placing abnormally large orders with dealers. Dealers, in turn, start placing abnormally large orders with mints. The mints have a relatively steady output, so supply doesn't change much. Increased demand with a fixed supply means the price point goes up. That's how markets work, no? I have noticed a propensity of people to call it "a free market" when it benefits their position, and "gouging" when it does not...

When/if demand subsides, prices will settle down, I think we are in agreement on that. But so long as there is an imbalance in supply and demand, prices for retail physical silver will remain more elevated over the paper price than typical. Unlike the paper market, which can print new contracts to meet demand (let's not pretend the number of contracts floating around is actually equal to the amount of silver in the warehouse), there is real manufacturing and tangible materials going into retail physical bullion, which makes it a finite product.

As far as being inconsistent from one location to the next, that's true to an extent even under regular market conditions in the retail physical silver market. Transactions don't all go through the same clearing house like they do (more or less) in paper markets, but rather are subject to regional availability (in the case of people buying from brick and mortar stores) and personal preference in brand/style/dealer/policies (in the case of internet/mail sales). All that said, retail physical silver prices have gone up nearly everywhere, and those that have not raised "premiums" are not realizing the full value of their products and sell out quickly. So it's not so much of a "wild fluctuation" as it is an across-the-board increase in price.

Also, what wholesale market for retail bullion are you taling about?

That's what I'm asking you. You are accusing dealers of gouging, saying that silver (which has to mean retail physical silver in this case) is still available at "normal" premiums. Where? Not from the general public. Not from the mints. Where at this moment in time is retail-sized physical silver still available to dealers for immediate delivery at "normal" premiums?

I understand that you have a vested interest in repeating your message about how you bought machines etc. etc.

I'm a small fish, and I'm only hand-pouring bars at this point. 1000 oz silver buy is out of my reach, let alone 5000 oz. In any case, as a paper trader with a vested interest in asserting that the paper price is the "real" price of silver and the physical price is wrong, would not your repetition be of the same accord, just on the other side of the aisle?

[SoFa]

Oh big deal. They're charging 20% over spot for fancy BU silver eagles?

These are extraordinary times. Let things settle out and normalize.

Besides the cost of equipment etc, they are the ones taking the risk. Sure they (some of them ) can hedge. But what are they supposed to do if they can't replenish their stock in a couple weeks? Lay everyone off? Let someone else get all the customers.

It would be great if the dealers would sell for a small premium and we could all load up and increase our stacks or flip on ebay for $12 an ounce over spot, but this all came on in a rush. the guys who loaded up on the initial drop took the gamble and they got the goods cheap. No sense in whining. There are other opportunities anyways.

It sucks for the steady customers who can't keep buying at spot plus whatever small amount. But the guys jumping on the bandwagon and complaining because the premiums are up a bit are gouging just as much as any dealer is.

[Jonflyfish]

However, I'll never buy the cheeky excuse that explaining those relatively stable planchet punching costs will drive premiums to fluctuate wildly and inconsistently from one location to the next. That's what I'm talking about.

Customers, triggered by a drop in spot price, start placing abnormally large orders with dealers. Dealers, in turn, start placing abnormally large orders with mints. The mints have a relatively steady output, so supply doesn't change much. Increased demand with a fixed supply means the price point goes up. That's how markets work, no? I have noticed a propensity of people to call it "a free market" when it benefits their position, and "gouging" when it does not...

When/if demand subsides, prices will settle down, I think we are in agreement on that. But so long as there is an imbalance in supply and demand, prices for retail physical silver will remain more elevated over the paper price than typical. Unlike the paper market, which can print new contracts to meet demand (let's not pretend the number of contracts floating around is actually equal to the amount of silver in the warehouse), there is real manufacturing and tangible materials going into retail physical bullion, which makes it a finite product.

As far as being inconsistent from one location to the next, that's true to an extent even under regular market conditions in the retail physical silver market. Transactions don't all go through the same clearing house like they do (more or less) in paper markets, but rather are subject to regional availability (in the case of people buying from brick and mortar stores) and personal preference in brand/style/dealer/policies (in the case of internet/mail sales). All that said, retail physical silver prices have gone up nearly everywhere, and those that have not raised "premiums" are not realizing the full value of their products and sell out quickly. So it's not so much of a "wild fluctuation" as it is an across-the-board increase in price.

Also, what wholesale market for retail bullion are you taling about?

That's what I'm asking you. You are accusing dealers of gouging, saying that silver (which has to mean retail physical silver in this case) is still available at "normal" premiums. Where? Not from the general public. Not from the mints. Where at this moment in time is retail-sized physical silver still available to dealers for immediate delivery at "normal" premiums?

I understand that you have a vested interest in repeating your message about how you bought machines etc. etc.

I'm a small fish, and I'm only hand-pouring bars at this point. 1000 oz silver buy is out of my reach, let alone 5000 oz. In any case, as a paper trader with a vested interest in asserting that the paper price is the "real" price of silver and the physical price is wrong, would not your repetition be of the same accord, just on the other side of the aisle?

It is very interesting to see extreme backwardation in retail and normal contango in institutional.
I have no vested interested in saying that paper price is the same as physical. I am independent and simply use various markets to achieve objectives with various tactics. However, I can assure you first hand that the paper contract price is the physical price for institutional sized trades. I can only assert that first hand as EFP executions were delivered as promised, regardless of what some certain folks here want to believe and proclaim religiously with out of context hoaky bible quotations otherwise.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Oh big deal. They're charging 20% over spot for fancy BU silver eagles?

These are extraordinary times. Let things settle out and normalize.

Besides the cost of equipment etc, they are the ones taking the risk. Sure they (some of them ) can hedge. But what are they supposed to do if they can't replenish their stock in a couple weeks? Lay everyone off? Let someone else get all the customers.

It would be great if the dealers would sell for a small premium and we could all load up and increase our stacks or flip on ebay for $12 an ounce over spot, but this all came on in a rush. the guys who loaded up on the initial drop took the gamble and they got the goods cheap. No sense in whining. There are other opportunities anyways.

It sucks for the steady customers who can't keep buying at spot plus whatever small amount. But the guys jumping on the bandwagon and complaining because the premiums are up a bit are gouging just as much as any dealer is.

Like was mnetioned earlier- if folks don't care about getting gored and gouged then let 'em.
Cheers!

[natsb88]

However, I can assure you first hand that the paper contract price is the physical price for institutional sized trades.

It may well be, but that does not necessarily translate to "normal" premiums in the retail-sized physical silver market. It is disingenuous to call a disconnect (temporary or not) between the institutional and retail silver prices "gouging." There is no such thing as gouging in a truly free market, only supply and demand. Gouging can only exist where outside forces (government, regulatory, big business with special privileges, etc.) are in play. And to that point, cash for tangible metal sure looks like a more organic market to me than million-times-per-second electronic trading and "too big to fail" government-nursed companies with unfathomably large short positions to cover. Just sayin'....

[Engineer]

However, I can assure you first hand that the paper contract price is the physical price for institutional sized trades.

It may well be, but that does not necessarily translate to "normal" premiums in the retail-sized physical silver market. It is disingenuous to call a disconnect (temporary or not) between the institutional and retail silver prices "gouging." There is no such thing as gouging in a truly free market, only supply and demand. Gouging can only exist where outside forces (government, regulatory, big business with special privileges, etc.) are in play. And to that point, cash for tangible metal sure looks like a more organic market to me than million-times-per-second electronic trading and "too big to fail" government-nursed companies with unfathomably large short positions to cover. Just sayin'....

[Jonflyfish]

However, I can assure you first hand that the paper contract price is the physical price for institutional sized trades.

It may well be, but that does not necessarily translate to "normal" premiums in the retail-sized physical silver market. It is disingenuous to call a disconnect (temporary or not) between the institutional and retail silver prices "gouging." There is no such thing as gouging in a truly free market, only supply and demand. Gouging can only exist where outside forces (government, regulatory, big business with special privileges, etc.) are in play. And to that point, cash for tangible metal sure looks like a more organic market to me than million-times-per-second electronic trading and "too big to fail" government-nursed companies with unfathomably large short positions to cover. Just sayin'....

We disagree and that's fine. Gouging doesn't need "outside" forces for slimey dealers to rake one unsuspecting person then when the store clears out, offer a significantly better price to the knowledgeable buyer. Never seen a million times/second market. It must have been incredible though. If you can proove someone has an "unfathomably short" position, they will be attacked similarly to Amaranth. Incredibly, and furthermore, the futures market is a zero sum game. there is no market maker that stands in between someone who has to be short where someone has to be long. You can't be unfathomably long or short without someone standing on the other side of the trade. Just sayin'...

Cheers!

[Engineer]

[natsb88]

Incredibly, and furthermore, the futures market is a zero sum game. there is no market maker that stand in between someone who has to be short where someone has to be long. You can't be unfathomably long or short without someone standing on the other side of the trade.

When there is a huge crowd on one side of the fence all holding relatively small long positions, and only a handful on the other side of the fence holding comparatively gigantic short positions, I would call the position of those few "unfathomably short." Unfathomably unless, of course, they have the kind of influence to ensure it pays off.

Zero sum? I'm skeptical, to say the least. There have been enough scandals, collapses, and failures just in the last five years to prove that even the largest corporations aren't above "a second set of books" to oversimplify it. Those who express the utmost confidence in the integrity of modern day paper markets raise my suspicions. I can't help but wonder if they are innocently naive, a hired shill, or just have friends high enough up to ensure their own safety. It's like sticking the car key up in the visor instead of keeping it in your pocket...what was once an uneventful norm is now just asking for trouble.

[Engineer]

Those who express the utmost confidence in the integrity of modern day paper markets raise my suspicions. I can't help but wonder if they are innocently naive, a hired shill, or just have friends high enough up to ensure their own safety.

Occam's razor would answer that question with B. Hired shills are cheap and effective at distributing misinformation.

[Jonflyfish]

Incredibly, and furthermore, the futures market is a zero sum game. there is no market maker that stand in between someone who has to be short where someone has to be long. You can't be unfathomably long or short without someone standing on the other side of the trade.

When there is a huge crowd on one side of the fence all holding relatively small long positions, and only a handful on the other side of the fence holding comparatively gigantic short positions, I would call the position of those few "unfathomably short." Unfathomably unless, of course, they have the kind of influence to ensure it pays off.

Zero sum? I'm skeptical, to say the least. There have been enough scandals, collapses, and failures just in the last five years to prove that even the largest corporations aren't above "a second set of books" to oversimplify it. Those who express the utmost confidence in the integrity of modern day paper markets raise my suspicions. I can't help but wonder if they are innocently naive, a hired shill, or just have friends high enough up to ensure their own safety. It's like sticking the car key up in the visor instead of keeping it in your pocket...what was once an uneventful norm is now just asking for trouble.

You can be skeptical. You also don't participate. If those who participated were skeptical they would vanish faster than one's opinion about what they think but do not know from the sidelines. Those who don't express confidence in the USD don't have to hold it. However, I do not know of any employers or merchants that don't use it. So, I use it. And I prefer to use it instead of my physical position. There is a stong tone from dealers (that wouldn't be you, right) that physical is better than paper. My view is that I go where the opportunity is. I don't have to marry my beliefs that no matter what, there is only one answer. That sounds like a view spread by a dealer. And, BTW- I've never seen dealers happier than when they make a large cash transaction, like they couldn't hand over that metal fast enough. Perhaps the shill in them needed to pay for food, rent, car, kid's tuition, gas in the tank etc. USD is for shills except for when one needs to pay for goods and services. Suddenly it then has tangible value LOL.
Cheers!

[scyther]

Those who express the utmost confidence in the integrity of modern day paper markets raise my suspicions. I can't help but wonder if they are innocently naive, a hired shill, or just have friends high enough up to ensure their own safety.

Occam's razor would answer that question with B. Hired shills are cheap and effective at distributing misinformation.

[shucks] just got real.

[SoFa]

Oh big deal. They're charging 20% over spot for fancy BU silver eagles?

These are extraordinary times. Let things settle out and normalize.

Besides the cost of equipment etc, they are the ones taking the risk. Sure they (some of them ) can hedge. But what are they supposed to do if they can't replenish their stock in a couple weeks? Lay everyone off? Let someone else get all the customers.

It would be great if the dealers would sell for a small premium and we could all load up and increase our stacks or flip on ebay for $12 an ounce over spot, but this all came on in a rush. the guys who loaded up on the initial drop took the gamble and they got the goods cheap. No sense in whining. There are other opportunities anyways.

It sucks for the steady customers who can't keep buying at spot plus whatever small amount. But the guys jumping on the bandwagon and complaining because the premiums are up a bit are gouging just as much as any dealer is.

Like was mnetioned earlier- if folks don't care about getting gored and gouged then let 'em.
Cheers!

Well, why don't you back your argument with some facts if you are going to accuse retailers of gouging just because they're charging a little more for govt produced coins this week? How much does it cost to produce, and pay employees and all the other expenses? It seems to me like a very low margin business. Are you arguing just based on what the premium has historically been or some actual knowledge of the business?

For a guy who's big in the Fortune 500 world and a futures wheeler dealer, what do you have against the market deciding the price of coins?

And btw, what do ASEs and their premiums have to do with he futures market and its zero sum game anyways?

I'm also kind of curious why the government is even in the business of 1oz bullion coins. Why should their mammoth operations drive most of the entrepreneurs out of that industry?

[natsb88]

You can be skeptical. You also don't participate. If those who participated were skeptical they would vanish faster than one's opinion about what they think but do not know from the sidelines. Those who don't express confidence in the USD don't have to hold it. However, I do not know of any employers or merchants that don't use it. So, I use it. And I prefer to use it instead of my physical position. There is a stong tone from dealers (that wouldn't be you, right) that physical is better than paper. My view is that I go where the opportunity is. I don't have to marry my beliefs that no matter what, there is only one answer. That sounds like a view spread by a dealer. And, BTW- I've never seen dealers happier than when they make a large cash transaction, like they couldn't hand over that metal fast enough. Perhaps the shill in them needed to pay for food, rent, car, kid's tuition, gas in the tank etc. USD is for shills except for when one needs to pay for goods and services. Suddenly it then has tangible value LOL.
Cheers!

I was referring to the integrity of futures and paper commodities, not the USD. Though the USD is certainly lacking integrity and a big factor in market booms and busts.

I'll just go back to my original question one more time, since it still hasn't been answered. Where is your proof that dealers are still buying retail-sized silver in bulk at "normal" premiums and are therefore gouging by charging $4 - $5 over spot? And if you know where you can buy bulk retail-sized silver for "normal" premiums and the retail side is supporting $4 - $5 over, then why not jump on that easy money train since, as you said, "my view is that I go where the opportunity is?" You can be skeptical. You also don't participate. If those who participated were skeptical they would vanish faster than one's opinion about what they think but do not know from the sidelines.