Did you do it?

[scyther]

Your points align with so many assumptions and exceptions in order to make your point. I am neutral and have no conflict of interest. I am independent. For some, silver is a basic necessity. It is far more of an industrial metal than as a financial instrument. Why should shops be obliged to sell a fungible commodity at the price where discovered in a liquid pool? Really? I agree when everyone is selling at the same price IT IS the market! Exactly my point. However, when you see fragmented, end of distribution chain small retail shops with price premiums ranging between $3-11+, when the normal premiums for those SAME shops is closer to <= $3 that IS NOT the market. End user fever price manipulation by unethical unscrupulous bucket shops in the first degree. One un-headged small timer doesn't want to lose in a declining market so his premiums bloat so someone else can cover his MtM losses for him. The next supply source sees it and bloats their premiums to gouge and rake in the premium etc etc. What they paid folks who walked in to sell their coins during all of this was an even greater transgression. Then, when the market is more stable they go back out and buy more supply and begin the journey back to their normal premiums. It is what it is. I just hope some folks could understand that when it was taking place and I was here taking mortar rounds for pointing it out.

Cheers!

People buying junk silver at a coin shop aren't using it in industry. They're doing it because they want to protect their wealth, speculate, collect, whatever. Industrial users can use the COMEX bars. I don't believe silver is more an industrial than precious/monetary/financial metal.

And yes, really. Why should they be obliged to sell something? You can't just decide you want something, come up with a price you think is fair for it, and then force someone to sell it for that price. That's not how free market capitalism works, and it shouldn't be.

You still haven't told me where you could buy junk or 1-ounce bullion without high premiums. But if you think there was a way to do it, why not start your own coin business and put the extortionists out of business, or at least force them to sell at your (fair) prices to compete?

[scyther]

JFF agitates you guys so much. Why?

I think his posts are very objective. He just passes on what is happening.

But I do think a premium on a 1oz coin is not out of line.

Someone has to do the work to make that coin, that work has value that is built in.

You would not expect to buy a functioning car at steel spot price. Coins are a functioning item. I've traded thousands of dollars worth or silver, just on this forum for products.

I paid for my wood pile with ASE's. That would be hard to do If I had to scrap a few ounces off my 1000 oz bar.

I agree. I also usually find him objective. He says what the price is, and where he thinks it's going based on technical analysis, regardless of "funny-mentals". Nothing wrong with that. But this isn't objective. It's his opinion about ethics, and the reason it may annoy some people so much is that they may be the "extortionists" he is criticizing.

That suggests that there are some folks here who may have participated in the unscrupulous price gouging activity (I didn't say anyone here did).

There are certainly some people here who own coin shops, and since premiums increased everywhere, that seems like a safe assumption. I realize you didn't attack anyone in particular.

[Jonflyfish]

You also suggested that "when prices drop, more small time physical holders want to buy than sell". I disagree. Some were buying and some were selling. No evidence to suggest any bias.

The premiums and associated delays ARE the evidence. Blinding yourself to those data in order to prove your point that physical dealers are extortionists is both disingenuous and a misuse of the word extortion.

Whatever you said is disingenuous and misusing my point. You are speaking to something I haven't said.

Cheers!

[neilgin1]

retracted....not worth it.

[neilgin1]

retracted.

[neilgin1]

Here's the definition of extortion-

To wrest from an unwilling person by physical force, menace, duress, torture, or any undue or illegal exercise of power or ingenuity; to wrench away (from); to tear away; to wring (from); to exact; as, to extort contributions from the vanquished; to extort confessions of guilt; to extort a promise; to extort payment of a debt.

What of that is entailed in asking a high price for an ASE?

None of it. Some people get so caught up in the paper markets, managing accounts where our combined hoards here at Realcent would be nothing more than a rounding error, that they forget that there are other types of markets out there. Markets for real transactions of physical goods, markets and products that can't necessarily be bought and sold from a comfy office chair on Wall Street. Markets that have tens of thousands of small players, each operating independently with their own goals, instead of just a handful of huge players, often sharing or pooling resources to influence the market. Markets that involve tangible products, and manufacturing, are subject to the laws of time and physics, and can't be expanded and contracted on a whim by changing some numbers on a contract or rules at an exchange. When these markets, retail physical markets, influenced less by corporatism and bets on futures and more by instantaneous supply and demand, show signs of departing from the paper market, even just temporarily, those Wall-Street-is-the-be-all-end-all-of-prices-for-everything guys start to panic.

Surely the paper market can't be wrong. The market makers, companies like JP Morgan, those guys are on the up-and-up. That must mean the retail physical dealers are the problem. How DARE they deviate from the paper prices set by the Wall Street gods? Those slimy physical companies are out to stiff their customers, because clearly they don't depend on repeat business. Those mom-and-pop shops are price gouging, because silver is a basic necessity that people are obligated to buy, and there are no competitors they could go to if they don't like their price. Markets where the price is set then and there, by a buyer with cash in hand and a seller with a physical product...what an EVIL idea. Those sellers are extortionists and those buyers are idiots. Don't you know that prices are set by people much higher up in the food chain? Small business owners and end customers shouldn't have any say in prices, a free market can only be run properly by big corporations with special government connections and by people with lots and lots of money.

There is nothing more frightening and frustrating to someone who lives in a paper world than seeing the physical price of a commodity depart from the paper price. That defies everything they KNOW about markets. There's a feeling of complete loss of control. What chart can you use to determine the future premium of an ASE? What index can you use to hedge against the rise or fall of retail physical silver premiums? How can you figure out how quickly the mints can respond to increased demand and how many people will be waiting in line and for how long and how much do they want to buy and what price are they willing to pay? Is it panic buying? Are higher premiums the new norm? Will they go back down? When? In the physical market we're talking about people and personal decisions, and those aren't always predictable. That type of uncertainty can make paper traders' heads explode, so naturally any indication that it could be happening will bring out harsh criticisms from those who need the paper market to maintain dominance.

well spoke Nate.....I thought I was a good writer...you're much better than I, in crafting a rebuttal to obvious confusion sown. well spoke.

[68Cougar]

Take a look at ebay auction prices for 90% or one ounce rounds/bars. If buyers are getting screwed they are doing it to themselves.

[Jonflyfish]

None of it. Some people get so caught up in the paper markets, managing accounts where our combined hoards here at Realcent would be nothing more than a rounding error, that they forget that there are other types of markets out there. Markets for real transactions of physical goods, markets and products that can't necessarily be bought and sold from a comfy office chair on Wall Street. Markets that have tens of thousands of small players, each operating independently with their own goals, instead of just a handful of huge players, often sharing or pooling resources to influence the market. Markets that involve tangible products, and manufacturing, are subject to the laws of time and physics, and can't be expanded and contracted on a whim by changing some numbers on a contract or rules at an exchange. When these markets, retail physical markets, influenced less by corporatism and bets on futures and more by instantaneous supply and demand, show signs of departing from the paper market, even just temporarily, those Wall-Street-is-the-be-all-end-all-of-prices-for-everything guys start to panic.

Surely the paper market can't be wrong. The market makers, companies like JP Morgan, those guys are on the up-and-up. That must mean the retail physical dealers are the problem. How DARE they deviate from the paper prices set by the Wall Street gods? Those slimy physical companies are out to stiff their customers, because clearly they don't depend on repeat business. Those mom-and-pop shops are price gouging, because silver is a basic necessity that people are obligated to buy, and there are no competitors they could go to if they don't like their price. Markets where the price is set then and there, by a buyer with cash in hand and a seller with a physical product...what an EVIL idea. Those sellers are extortionists and those buyers are idiots. Don't you know that prices are set by people much higher up in the food chain? Small business owners and end customers shouldn't have any say in prices, a free market can only be run properly by big corporations with special government connections and by people with lots and lots of money.

There is nothing more frightening and frustrating to someone who lives in a paper world than seeing the physical price of a commodity depart from the paper price. That defies everything they KNOW about markets. There's a feeling of complete loss of control. What chart can you use to determine the future premium of an ASE? What index can you use to hedge against the rise or fall of retail physical silver premiums? How can you figure out how quickly the mints can respond to increased demand and how many people will be waiting in line and for how long and how much do they want to buy and what price are they willing to pay? Is it panic buying? Are higher premiums the new norm? Will they go back down? When? In the physical market we're talking about people and personal decisions, and those aren't always predictable. That type of uncertainty can make paper traders' heads explode, so naturally any indication that it could be happening will bring out harsh criticisms from those who need the paper market to maintain dominance.

well spoke Nate.....I thought I was a good writer...you're much better than I, in crafting a rebuttal to obvious confusion sown. well spoke.

Well spoken, yes. Truthful, not. This is not a contest of debate.
As to Nate- The final paragraph is full of pure rubbish. The very obvious undertone is that I'm a guy who lives in the "paper world" and that somehow that is a bad thing. The reality is that we all live in a paper world. Paper isn't good or bad, nether is physical. It simply is what it is. There are advantages and disadvantages for each. A dealer who is constantly looking to offload physical, wants paper. They are naturally long physical and are on the sell side, which makes them naturally in demand for paper. Further what some "KNOW" about markets is that there was obvious price gouging activity taking place by several small bucket shops during a rapid price decline and they pointed it out when it was occurring.
Again, naturally on the sell side, small un-hedged dealers want other unsuspecting fools to pay for mark to market losses when balance sheets dropout. If not, they go out of business. Saw this in 2008-9. Same story, same unscrupulous practices recently by several small bucket shops.
The markets are the ultimate arbiter. As unfortunate as it is when some folks get ripped off, its also during those market conditions that the unethical and uncouth bucketeers thankfully get washed away. Sadly the same breed tends to re-emerge during bullish trends. Always interesting to see so many buy the gold and silver now Now NOw NOW dot coms push silly stories about vault runs and worldwide instant shortages during a massive sell-off (opposite of crazed unsustainable, irrational exuberance buying) to support their new 4x+ premium gouging. Even more interesting to see the unscrupulous dealers flush out their supply at artificially inflated prices away from the liquid trading pools, turn around and re-supply from the liquid locations then post new inventory at significantly lower premiums. Where did all that mysterious supply suddenly come from? As far as predictability- the nonexistent future is always unknowable, regardless of paper or physical.

"There's a feeling of complete loss of control" Really? The loss of sense of control is when the bucketeer jacks up premiums from $3 to $11+ in a declining market while others may not. THAT is a loss of control, ethics, professionalism etc etc........
"That type of uncertainty can make paper traders' heads explode, so naturally any indication that it could be happening will bring out harsh criticisms from those who need the paper market to maintain dominance." One of the most ridiculous lines of horse shite I've ever read here. The folks who seem to be concerned about the uncertainty are many (physical holders) here who have expressed as much recently. I don't know about heads exploding. That seems to be a stretch.

As far as hedging and how to hedge, what to hedge with, how to structure the hedge, and with what forward curves etc- that isn't difficult. There is no need for "paper market to maintain dominance". It simply is dominant. Will that ever change? Nobody knows. But, it is what it is. As an obviously biased, non-independent view, with an inherent conflict of interest, your stance is well known for obvious reasons.

I much prefer to maintain independence and trade where the opportunity is, physical or paper.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Take a look at ebay auction prices for 90% or one ounce rounds/bars. If buyers are getting screwed they are doing it to themselves.

Agree 100%
Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

retracted....not worth it.

Fully concur.
Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Your points align with so many assumptions and exceptions in order to make your point. I am neutral and have no conflict of interest. I am independent. For some, silver is a basic necessity. It is far more of an industrial metal than as a financial instrument. Why should shops be obliged to sell a fungible commodity at the price where discovered in a liquid pool? Really? I agree when everyone is selling at the same price IT IS the market! Exactly my point. However, when you see fragmented, end of distribution chain small retail shops with price premiums ranging between $3-11+, when the normal premiums for those SAME shops is closer to <= $3 that IS NOT the market. End user fever price manipulation by unethical unscrupulous bucket shops in the first degree. One un-headged small timer doesn't want to lose in a declining market so his premiums bloat so someone else can cover his MtM losses for him. The next supply source sees it and bloats their premiums to gouge and rake in the premium etc etc. What they paid folks who walked in to sell their coins during all of this was an even greater transgression. Then, when the market is more stable they go back out and buy more supply and begin the journey back to their normal premiums. It is what it is. I just hope some folks could understand that when it was taking place and I was here taking mortar rounds for pointing it out.

Cheers!

People buying junk silver at a coin shop aren't using it in industry. They're doing it because they want to protect their wealth, speculate, collect, whatever. Industrial users can use the COMEX bars. I don't believe silver is more an industrial than precious/monetary/financial metal.

And yes, really. Why should they be obliged to sell something? You can't just decide you want something, come up with a price you think is fair for it, and then force someone to sell it for that price. That's not how free market capitalism works, and it shouldn't be.

You still haven't told me where you could buy junk or 1-ounce bullion without high premiums. But if you think there was a way to do it, why not start your own coin business and put the extortionists out of business, or at least force them to sell at your (fair) prices to compete?

I agree with why some people buy junk (Also realize that a lot of junk has been melted and used in industry). However, I believe earlier you said silver is primarily a financial instrument. It is not and your belief that you don't believe silver is more an industrial than precious/monetary/financial metal is not correct. You may personally prefer to hold it as a financial instrument, but the majority by far is used in industry. Approximately 10% of silver mined is used for coins and medals.

Still haven't told you where to buy 1 oz without high premiums? Sorry I must have missed that. Saw another thread in the forum where 1 oz from Monarch is going for $1.50 premium if I recall. That seems reasonable but that is subjective. Start my own retail shop to put extortionists out of business? I could. However, time also heals parasites. Most unscrupulous bucketeers are like parasites who breech their own law of survival and kill their host.

Water seeks its own level. Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Good luck friends. Won't be around to defend honest pricing for a while.

Cheers!

[inflationhawk]

Why would there be shipping delays if dealers were increasing premiums because they held stock priced at higher levels? Wouldn't they be wanting to unload that inventory as fast as possible?

[natsb88]

Now we're getting somewhere. I'm not going to take the time to pick apart Jon's statements bit by bit at this juncture because frankly I have better things to do. But to me at least, it's clear that Mr. Fish is what I like to call a "sunny day free marketist." That is to say, someone who touts the greatness of free markets when they behave as they think they should, while at the same time implying that there should be some entity or force compelling smaller players to "get back in line" if they depart from the "market prices" that the bigger players in higher places have set. Ironic, really, since the retail physical market is the real free market and the paper market is the one prone to corporate manipulation and government interference. Free markets come with risks. It's not exactly the wild west, but businesses are in business to make money and their job is to maximize profits. The buyer's job is to know and understand that and do their due diligence to find the best value (factoring in price, quality, customer service, delivery time, etc.) that meets their needs. A business raising prices in response to increased demand is hardly extortion. Jon's repeated tale of a "small bucket dealer jacking up premiums" is something I have yet to see in person, as I would not consider the likes of APMEX, Provident, Goldmart, etc. to be "small bucket" and they all increased premiums across the board. Perhaps he visited a local coin shop and became highly offended when the dealer asked $11 over spot for an ASE, I don't know. But I am fairly certain the dealer "asked" that price and didn't hold a gun to Jon's head and force him to purchase that ASE at $11 over spot, nor did that dealer in any way prevent Jon from going to a different dealer or ordering online. "Asking" $11 over for an ASE might be a bad price compared to others in the market, but it's not "extortion."

In truly free markets, truly unscrupulous businesses eventually go under. The guy asking $11 over spot for an ASE will adjust his price or go out of business if other equally accessible and stocked dealers are selling for $7 over. There are no bailouts for "small bucket dealers." Can't say the same for the likes of Bank of America ($45,000,000,000 bailout), AIG ($67,835,000,000 bailout), JP Morgan ($25,000,000,000 bailout), Goldman Sachs ($10,000,000,000 bailout), Morgan Stanley ($10,000,000,000 bailout), Fannie Mae ($116,149,000,000 bailout), Freddie Mac ($71,336,000,000 bailout), and a whole host of other "angelic" market makers. In a truly free market, those companies would have failed because of their unscrupulous business practices. Instead Uncle Sam bailed them out, so they are all alive and well trading paper silver and thousands of other things. The paper "market" in general is full of trading practices that would be unsustainable in a truly free market and only perpetuate because the government props up the companies that should go under when those trading practices finally catch up to them. To say, as Mr. Fish has said before, that the paper market is the true and free mechanism of price discovery, and that retail physical dealer prices responding to actual cash demand with actual physical supply is extortion, is just laughable.

[Jonflyfish]

Now we're getting somewhere. I'm not going to take the time to pick apart Jon's statements bit by bit at this juncture because frankly I have better things to do. But to me at least, it's clear that Mr. Fish is what I like to call a "sunny day free marketist." That is to say, someone who touts the greatness of free markets when they behave as they think they should, while at the same time implying that there should be some entity or force compelling smaller players to "get back in line" if they depart from the "market prices" that the bigger players in higher places have set. Ironic, really, since the retail physical market is the real free market and the paper market is the one prone to corporate manipulation and government interference. Free markets come with risks. It's not exactly the wild west, but businesses are in business to make money and their job is to maximize profits. The buyer's job is to know and understand that and do their due diligence to find the best value (factoring in price, quality, customer service, delivery time, etc.) that meets their needs. A business raising prices in response to increased demand is hardly extortion. Jon's repeated tale of a "small bucket dealer jacking up premiums" is something I have yet to see in person, as I would not consider the likes of APMEX, Provident, Goldmart, etc. to be "small bucket" and they all increased premiums across the board. Perhaps he visited a local coin shop and became highly offended when the dealer asked $11 over spot for an ASE, I don't know. But I am fairly certain the dealer "asked" that price and didn't hold a gun to Jon's head and force him to purchase that ASE at $11 over spot, nor did that dealer in any way prevent Jon from going to a different dealer or ordering online. "Asking" $11 over for an ASE might be a bad price compared to others in the market, but it's not "extortion."

In truly free markets, truly unscrupulous businesses eventually go under. The guy asking $11 over spot for an ASE will adjust his price or go out of business if other equally accessible and stocked dealers are selling for $7 over. There are no bailouts for "small bucket dealers." Can't say the same for the likes of Bank of America ($45,000,000,000 bailout), AIG ($67,835,000,000 bailout), JP Morgan ($25,000,000,000 bailout), Goldman Sachs ($10,000,000,000 bailout), Morgan Stanley ($10,000,000,000 bailout), Fannie Mae ($116,149,000,000 bailout), Freddie Mac ($71,336,000,000 bailout), and a whole host of other "angelic" market makers. In a truly free market, those companies would have failed because of their unscrupulous business practices. Instead Uncle Sam bailed them out, so they are all alive and well trading paper silver and thousands of other things. The paper "market" in general is full of trading practices that would be unsustainable in a truly free market and only perpetuate because the government props up the companies that should go under when those trading practices finally catch up to them. To say, as Mr. Fish has said before, that the paper market is the true and free mechanism of price discovery, and that retail physical dealer prices responding to actual cash demand with actual physical supply is extortion, is just laughable.

No time to address the issue so you create a lengthy and false narrative by telling me (and others) what I am and what I think, pinning me in a box and painting a derogatory picture?
It sound more like, perhaps the truth hurts so lance out at others.
I suppose that is what I should expect from someone who is not independent, and has a conflict of interest. Avoid the truth, redirect and change the subject, paint people into false boxes then launch into a bunch of cheeky tired old rhetoric to sustain your biased sell side stance where you have a vested interest.

No time for this forum if this is how it is. My stance is clear and I call it like it is with actual market activity. There where predatory price gouging activities by some unscrupulous dealers during a price drop.
No need to entertain this type of predatory bashing any longer.

Cheers!

[Copper Member]

and you guys continue to encourage this clown

[natsb88]

Ignore the substantive critique of the paper market and instead make it personal. A master of deflection

JFF, by his own admission, has had or does have significant dealings in the paper silver market, and has made a career out of trading in the broader paper markets, but somehow he is "neutral and unbiased" and provides an "objective perspective" when it comes to paper vs. physical? That is a textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black.

It's no secret that I deal in the physical market. Everybody here knows that. But I'm not masquerading as an omniscient soothsayer coming here out of the goodness of my heart to enlighten the people of Realcent of the error of their ways. There are a significant number of folks here who play the paper markets, many of the same ones I do physical trades with, and they are some pretty smart cookies. There is money to be made there, no doubt. But the questions I raise about the paper markets prevent me personally from having any interest in trading them. If you believe buying physical silver when premiums are higher than "normal" throughout the entire supply chain due to a spike in demand is a bad idea, that's fine. I don't entirely disagree. But don't stand up and pretend, let alone proclaim, that your opinion that higher physical premiums means dealers are "extortionists" and "unscrupulous" is completely neutral and unbiased. It's the thinly veiled soapboxery, moreso than the actual message, that irks me.

Cheers!

[inflationhawk]

There will always be unscrupulous people that try to price aggressively in any market with tight supply conditions, but the market as a whole did not "price gouge" in my opinion. Buyers must shop to find the best deal, that's part of being an informed consumer. I hope no one is suggesting Nixonian type price controls to keep dealers from pricing what someone perceives as "too high" (who would decide that?)! Pricing for ASEs was reflective of the tight supply conditions demonstrated by the delay in shipping across the board at major dealers. Now that supply has had a chance to catch up you can already see the premiums coming down. There sure seems to be more manipulation and unscrupulous behavior in the paper trading silver market than with the physical market of American Silver Eagles. That being said, I chose to not pay a premium earlier in the month on the silver price drop because I did not want to pay the premiums being asked. I bought gold instead where the premiums did not spike as much (and supply was immediately available). Everyone has a choice.

[InfleXion]

It appears obvious to me that the electronic markets are not functioning in their native capacity. If it were the proper matter of what a buyer is willing to pay (ask) and what a seller is willing to sell for (ask) - there are always 2 prices - then we would not see things that we see occurring such as yearly mining volume being moved in a single session, or 50% price swings in a market with relative consistency and predictability on the physical side. There is no rational explanation for the way metal markets behave except for the one which is true, which is that they are independent of supply and demand with fake supply and leverage/margin which serve to both divert demand and invite speculation.

The physical market and the spot price are 2 similar but essentially different things, like sea salt and ocean water. Within that, the eagle market is different than the 90% market is different than the lunar market and so on. They each need to be taken in their own supply/demand context.

It is really only base bullion that follows the paper price, and if that were an accurate price we wouldn't see demand exceeding mining supply each year coupled with historic lows in available supply - while not yet unavailable enough to call the paper pushers' bluff, one day either that must occur or else price increase must occur to bring more metal to market. Time is the question.

[inflationhawk]

Yes and the unfortunate part is that the manipulations and the unscrupulous activities in the paper market affect the price for EVERYONE. If one physical market vendor is deemed to be unscrupulous, the customer can simply find another physical market vendor. Eventually, the market will decide if the "unscrupulous" vendor goes out of business. Unfortunately, you can't simply choose to not participate or affiliate with the unscrupulous paper market dealer because they affect the price for everyone. There is nothing wrong with how the physical market operates, its just unfortunate that the base price of the physical market is derived from the paper market.

[shinnosuke]

No time for this forum if this is how it is. My stance is clear and I call it like it is with actual market activity. There where predatory price gouging activities by some unscrupulous dealers during a price drop.
No need to entertain this type of predatory bashing any longer.

Cheers!

Well, just a few days ago this forum managed to run off pennypicker because he had a different opinion about the internment of Japanese-American citizens during WWII. Now, it looks like JFF may be gone. Who's next? What will it take to make realcent as pure as the driven snow?

I frankly admit that I don't understand all the fine points of the argument that has gone back and forth here, but I do question the apparent need to have the last word. A 1000 toz bar, which generated a lot of discussion, is the same amount of silver as two monster boxes...not that much really. About 6 weeks ago I proposed a group buy through JFF's company. No takers, unfortunately.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22767&p=214000&hilit=group+buy#p214000

What an unfortunate loss.

[Jonflyfish]

Ignore the substantive critique of the paper market and instead make it personal. A master of deflection

JFF, by his own admission, has had or does have significant dealings in the paper silver market, and has made a career out of trading in the broader paper markets, but somehow he is "neutral and unbiased" and provides an "objective perspective" when it comes to paper vs. physical? That is a textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black.

It's no secret that I deal in the physical market. Everybody here knows that. But I'm not masquerading as an omniscient soothsayer coming here out of the goodness of my heart to enlighten the people of Realcent of the error of their ways. There are a significant number of folks here who play the paper markets, many of the same ones I do physical trades with, and they are some pretty smart cookies. There is money to be made there, no doubt. But the questions I raise about the paper markets prevent me personally from having any interest in trading them. If you believe buying physical silver when premiums are higher than "normal" throughout the entire supply chain due to a spike in demand is a bad idea, that's fine. I don't entirely disagree. But don't stand up and pretend, let alone proclaim, that your opinion that higher physical premiums means dealers are "extortionists" and "unscrupulous" is completely neutral and unbiased. It's the thinly veiled soapboxery, moreso than the actual message, that irks me.

Cheers!

Very simply, you avoid the unscrupulous activities by SOME (I haver never said all) dealers and try to deflect attention by saying I am not neutral because I have traded in the financial markets? Pure rubbish. I have and always have maintained that I trade in physical and financial. However, unlike yourself, I have no vested interest in promoting one or the other.I do not have a conflict of interest in suggesting one should participate in physical or financial.
This isn't about physical or financial. Neither are good or bad. I have repeated this many times.

Unlike you, I don't tell people who you are, what you believe and associate you with some group of negatively painted associations then go off and make disparaging and derogatory remarks as an ill attempt to make you look like someone many people here would feel negative about. That's not my style. Sorry you resorted to such disgrace.

My point is and has been this- when the market was selling off, There was a very wide disparity among the small fragmented dealers where some were offering spot + $3 and others $11+ for the same coin. There ARE predatory dealers who price gouge because they can, or justify such because they have to or they go out of business for not hedging their cost basis.
That is a disadvantage of small retail trades. In large liquid centralized markets, such activity doesn't exist because of competitive pricing.

I'm simply done explaining my point. Too many here are twisting my words into things I haven't said or debating against things that simply were not said or aren't true.

Cheers!

[aloneibreak]

and you guys continue to encourage this clown

am i the only one who remembers when JFF used to post about running his ryedale and the copper penny market and food storage and fishing ?

[natsb88]

My point is and has been this- when the market was selling off, There was a very wide disparity among the small fragmented dealers where some were offering spot + $3 and others $11+ for the same coin. There ARE predatory dealers who price gouge because they can, or justify such because they have to or they go out of business for not hedging their cost basis.

I don't entirely disagree with the principle of this particular position (other than the use of the term "price gouging" because such a thing does not exist in a truly free market), but that is not the generalized "physical premiums are too high and dealers are gouging" position you started off with a few weeks ago. Targeting shady "bucket shops" (whatever that means) is much different from a general insistence that silver is available at "normal premiums" on the wholesale level and dealers who are charging increased premiums are unscrupulous. You will probably respond that I am twisting your words or some such because I haven't taken the time to comb through and quote your posts from the dozen or so pages in the previous thread and the three in this new one, but anybody who has followed the entire conversation will be able to see the backpedaling and the addition of qualifiers to make a previously broad and indefensible position more appealing. It feels like a cop out.

Well, just a few days ago this forum managed to run off pennypicker because he had a different opinion about the internment of Japanese-American citizens during WWII. Now, it looks like JFF may be gone. Who's next? What will it take to make realcent as pure as the driven snow?

I didn't see the pennypicker incident, but I do know JFF has come and gone quite a few times. I don't think anybody has asked JFF to leave, I sure haven't. I think having a variety of viewpoints to analyze and consider is healthy. But I also expect people to be able to back up their assertions with objective evidence. Mr. Fish has swung around this "unscrupulous dealer" generalization since the beginning of the price drop, which has now been downgraded to "bucket shops," but still without any actual examples. When questioned, he deflects, or as has happened with similar intense discussions on other topics in the past, he simply disappears for a period until the conversation fades into the background.

[Copper Member]

My issue is this, whether JFF or anyone else. Save your "silver is gonna go up unless it goes down" predictions for someplace else. Dude if you really knew were the price of metals was gonna go, you wouldn't be giving that info away here for free. Is it fun to talk about what we think is gonna happen? Yes ,of course. But I have a problem with "experts" with their fancy charts and what not thinking that they know what is going to happen and then willing their influence onto their cult followers. I know I am not the only one here that feels this way. Some are more prudent than me. I just can't take it anymore. If you ignore this guy, he will go away. I myself as well as many others here own their own shops. We don't make money by selling metal at spot. Especially when you are into it for more that.

[scyther]

No time for this forum if this is how it is. My stance is clear and I call it like it is with actual market activity. There where predatory price gouging activities by some unscrupulous dealers during a price drop.
No need to entertain this type of predatory bashing any longer.

Cheers!

Well, just a few days ago this forum managed to run off pennypicker because he had a different opinion about the internment of Japanese-American citizens during WWII. Now, it looks like JFF may be gone. Who's next? What will it take to make realcent as pure as the driven snow?

No one said penny picker should leave. Both he and JFF didn't like the prevailing opinion against them, decided they were being persecuted and declared they would leave (although JFF at least has not actually done so yet ). If people are offended by my or anyone else's opinion, they can either deal with it or leave. It's their choice. I'm not trying to run anyone out of the forum.